The White Man's Fear

[Machjo]

I have no shame. That's on you. Judging the past cultural behaviour and thinking of our ancestors based on present day mores and our current level of sophistication is an exercise in narcissistic masochism. Do I think everything that was done w/r to racial, cultural or social issues in the past was correct? Of course not! But I'm not about to writhe in guilt because my ancestors weren't nice to people.

Didn't our ancestors of not even 200 years ago read the Sermon on the Mount of centuries earlier? Even by the standards of centuries before, the residential school system and other forms of Canadian colonialism were tyranous. Unless you're saying that the Gospel had already become a dead book by then?

[Machjo]

I have no shame. That's on you. Judging the past cultural behaviour and thinking of our ancestors based on present day mores and our current level of sophistication is an exercise in narcissistic masochism. Do I think everything that was done w/r to racial, cultural or social issues in the past was correct? Of course not! But I'm not about to writhe in guilt because my ancestors weren't nice to people.

Didn't our ancestors of not even 200 years ago read the Sermon on the Mount of centuries earlier? Even by the standards of centuries before, the residential school system and other forms of Canadian colonialism were tyranous. Unless you're saying that the Gospel had already become a dead book by then?

[Peter F]

By silencing white men, Canada can’t have an honest debate about equality, race and culture...

I read your link and have concluded the mans a fool or a politician - perhaps both.

He derides multiculturalism (Multicultism as he see's it) as forcing most white men into muttering platitudes instead of being honest.

Dosanjh's words:

the practitioners of a fierce brand of exclusivist Multiculturalism that ought to be renamed Multicultism. Under these circumstances when politicians do speak they utter non sequiturs, simply bromides.

Of course, three or four paragraphs earlier he says this:

It is not about changing one’s religion or bleaching one’s skin to make it paler. It is about learning the moral, ethical, social and political anchors that, in this case, Canada is rooted in.

Now that is a meaningless platitude. As Argus well knows, those very anchors are what fuels debate one these very pages and many other forums, most notably political forums. His anchors are not fixed in any way shape or form except through the laws of the land.

As Overthere said in post #3

This is what I see as required of both new and old Canadians: 1) obey the law 2. pay taxes. That's it. All the rest is up to you, make of it what you wish. Freedom baby!

Dosanjh then provides examples of how

we can’t and don’t debate the kind of society we are building out of fear for being called racists; anybody such as Andy Yan who dares to speak risks inviting our wrath.

One of his examples is this:

Several years ago a report on the front page of the Vancouver Sun stated that close to a billion dollars of unaccounted and undeclared money was circulating in the construction industry in Surrey. Such massive fraud did not elicit even a peep from the usually loud public voices. It was well known that almost all of the residential and a portion of the commercial construction was in the hands of Indo-Canadians. Complete silence reigned in the political sphere.

Oh right. We should now discuss the corruption of Indo-Canadians. At least Indo-Canadians in Surrey BC. Never mind applying the law to individuals allegedly breaking laws - lets instead discuss the failures of Indo-Canadians race/culture instead.

That is bigotry in its full blown anti-inclusive form. Blame all into-Canadians for the actions of a few; Encourage all to discuss how Indo-Canadians fail to conform to Dosanjh's imaginary Anchors. Never mind the law and never mind applying it. Lets point our fingers at the group and say 'They failed to adopt Canadian Values'.

Dosanjh supplies another example of how discussion is stultified by multi-cultualism in the form of "a strata council executive ordained that its meetings will be conducted in Mandarin only" The very same issue that has its own thread on these very pages. The very issue that an actual white man filed a complaint with that legal body the Human Rights Commission.

Dosanjh:

This shocking episode landed in the midst of the already hot controversy around the Chinese-only signs of various commercial establishments in Richmond. The Richmond council has failed to show any real leadership on these unnecessarily isolationist signs.

and then claims

The fear of being branded racists has paralyzed the Richmond politicians.

Never mind the fear of losing elections - thats got nothing to do with it. Instead its fear of the blogosphere and Progressives calling them racists. Never mind that Richmond is a functioning democracy and the golden platter of opportunity has now been extended to those that want to see an end to chinese-only signs on various commercial establishments in Richmond. Democracy ceases to function, apparently, when multiculturalists like me cry Racism! Bigotry!.

The two most powerful words in the English language - puts a stop to all discussion! Yah. Bullshit.

[Machjo]

Soory, technical glitch.

What is the timeline for having to accept guilt after the fact?

It has nothing to do with feeling guilty, but rather to do with not perpetuating past wrongs.

We continue to perpetuate injustice to this day.

[Argus]

Didn't our ancestors of not even 200 years ago read the Sermon on the Mount of centuries earlier? Even by the standards of centuries before, the residential school system and other forms of Canadian colonialism were tyranous. Unless you're saying that the Gospel had already become a dead book by then?

How often has western society acted according to the gospel? Our ancestors were bastards. But then again, here's the thing, so were everyone else's ancestors! By our present cultural/social standards everyone in the world of two hundred years ago was a brutish racist, bigot religious wacko. That includes the natives, btw. They had wars here long before there were any white men, wars, torture, slavery, genocide, etc. It wasn't a garden of Eden with everyone smiling lovingly at each other.

[Argus]

He derides multiculturalism (Multicultism as he see's it) as forcing most white men into muttering platitudes instead of being honest.

So? It's true enough.

Dosanjh's words:

about learning the moral, ethical, social and political anchors that, in this case, Canada is rooted in.

Now that is a meaningless platitude. As Argus well knows, those very anchors are what fuels debate one these very pages and many other forums, most notably political forums. His anchors are not fixed in any way shape or form except through the laws of the land.

No, I disagree. This is the assumption that Canada has no culture, no native values. That's untrue. There might be a wide variance in how we observe and abide by those 'anchors' but the variance is only wide by Canada's narrow standards. Generally speaking we all, or almost all of us, have a belief in certain broad ethical and moral standards. Things which happen in other countries are simply unheard of here. Mobs of people attacking minority communities for example, or killing individuals of another religion they see as having offended their god. We are a generally law abiding people compared to many other world cultures. India and China come to mind, where the cultures teach you that anything you can get away with you do. Why are women not safe on the streets of India or Egypt? Because those cultures place little value or respect on women or individual rights. Why do so many Muslims across the world support Sharia law? Because to them, religion trumps anything man does. If "God" says that someone should be killed for adultery or have their hand cut off for theft, well then, that's it. You don't argue with God. But Canadians are a secular people who don't believe religion should guide everyday law. I could go on and on but to suggest we don't have a common set of characteristic beliefs and sense of morality and justice as compared to the rest of the world - particularly the third world where almost all our immigrants come from - is as far wrong as it's possible to get.

As Overthere said in post #3

And he is completely wrong. Chinese, as an example come here and they learn that, for example, you shouldn't spit on the sidewalk, and you shouldn't pick your nose in public, and you don't try to shove past people to get into a bus or train, and a hundred other social rules which, if they ignore them, cause people to think of them as barbarians*. He is suggesting they should just do what they want, as long as it's not a crime. That would lead to their community being denigrated and ostracized by the broader community. How is that going to lead to anything good?

Oh right. We should now discuss the corruption of Indo-Canadians. At least Indo-Canadians in Surrey BC. Never mind applying the law to individuals allegedly breaking laws - lets instead discuss the failures of Indo-Canadians race/culture instead.

That is bigotry in its full blown anti-inclusive form.

Are you seriously suggesting an Indo-Canadian wants to fan the flames of bigotry against Indo-Canadians? What he was suggesting was that the issue was ignored because white people were afraid of being seen as bigoted. This is actually very similar to what happened in the notorious UK cases of child sexual abuse by Pakistanis. The social service agencies and police squirmed with discomfort at the very notion of accusing a bunch of Pakistanis of preying on white girls. They shrank away from confronting the issue for fears of being labelled bigots and racists, and allowed it to continue for decades. This is not merely opinion, but the conclusion of the commission into what happened.

Dosanjh supplies another example of how discussion is stultified by multi-cultualism in the form of "a strata council executive ordained that its meetings will be conducted in Mandarin only"[/size] The very same issue that has its own thread on these very pages. The very issue that an actual white man filed a complaint with that legal body the Human Rights Commission.

He was using it as example of Chinese failing to adapt to Canada and adopt Canadian values.

Never mind the fear of losing elections - thats got nothing to do with it.

But as we've seen, anyone who dares to discuss things openly or set a foot awry gets attacked by horrified progressives, and let's face it, that includes virtually all of the national media. So yes, the fear is of being portrayed as a racist or bigot by the media, which is why no one will talk about important issues except in the most enthusiastic and positive manner.

Witness Justin Trudeau. He's willing to talk about native issues, all right! But only by agreeing with every single thing every single native leader says, and with a smiling, happy face. Confront the inherent problems of the Indian Act and its blatant racism, and the way it keeps natives as continuing welfare dependents? Not a chance in hell! No way is he ever going to say anything controversial! No way is he going to take on the native rights and grievance industry!

By the way, I congratulate you with addressing the substance of his argument and pointing out why you believe it was wrong, rather than merely scattering broad based smears around as others have chosen to do. I think intelligent discussion on things we disagree with is why most of us come here.

* in case anyone gets outraged at those examples they are drawn from a story I saw on the spread of etiquette classes among China's millionaire set on how to behave in the west and towards westerners, and the things they should not be doing which would make them seem crude to westerners.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Argus

[Machjo]

What a stereotyped view of the Chinese. I'very seen whites spit on the street and pick their noses in public. I know Chinese who could teach some whites a thing or two about etiquette.

I know plenty of law abiding Chinese. Meanwhile ex-Col. Russell Williams comes to mind. Sorry, bad example. He'd immigrated from England. Oops. I think I just proved your point on immigration.

[Accountability Now]

Cultural assimilation should never be the goal. Legal assimilation - where everyone is treated the same under the law, regardless of race or family class, should be the goal. At current, it isn't, nor do I expect it to be.

I like the way you said this. I have no inkling to take away any cultural aspect from the First Nations just the same way any person should protect and hold onto their culture. But when it comes to the law and how this country is made up, there is only one Canada which all people should live under the same laws, taxes, and general patriotism beyond your culture. At this point the main issue is this nation to nation concept that is not a reality nor was it ever a reality. Legal assimilation was always the goal but now you have this power struggle because we have played the game to long. Its time to end it.

[overthere]

I have no inkling to take away any cultural aspect from the First Nations

Legal assimilation was always the goal

So you'll let the dirty Indians keep those hilarious hats with feathers as long as they live where and how they are told?

Thanks man.

[Guest]

What a stereotyped view of the Chinese. I'very seen whites spit on the street and pick their noses in public. I know Chinese who could teach some whites a thing or two about etiquette.

I know plenty of law abiding Chinese. Meanwhile ex-Col. Russell Williams comes to mind. Sorry, bad example. He'd immigrated from England. Oops. I think I just proved your point on immigration.

I forgive you.

[Moonlight Graham]

The native issue will NEVER be solved by progressives. The only way it's ever going to find a solution is for a hard nosed conservative, someone like Mike Harris, to bull his way through all the screaming and screeching which any significant change to the existing system will bring and make drastic changes to the Indian Act. Something like abolishing the reserves, selling the land and giving the money to natives, or building them all houses in towns and cities where they can find work. Progressives still swoon at the cigar store Indian, and want to keep natives on reserves as quaint museum pieces.

I don't disagree.

IMO, natives have a choice. They can choose to live on reserves in the middle of nowhere that are set up to preserve a romanticized way of life they used to have pre-european contact, where poverty, disease, starvation, and short lives were rampant and a normal way of life. Or they can choose to join modern capitalist society in Canada's towns and cities which provide excellent wealth, health, services, and overall standard of living. Yes our governments can help more to make the reserves more sustainable with better services and standard of living, but they can never break the cycle of poverty within that system of living. Isolated communities in Nunavut or wherever else that ignore the realities of simple economics will never prosper on their own. Modern white man's world is the best society to ever exist in the history of human civilization and they're invited to join!

Whatever comes out of the inquiry on missing and murdered aboriginal women will say one thing: native reserves are poor, and poverty breeds crime, and crime leads to a high number of missing and murdered women.

[Moonlight Graham]

Oh right. We should now discuss the corruption of Indo-Canadians. At least Indo-Canadians in Surrey BC. Never mind applying the law to individuals allegedly breaking laws - lets instead discuss the failures of Indo-Canadians race/culture instead.

That is bigotry in its full blown anti-inclusive form. Blame all into-Canadians for the actions of a few; Encourage all to discuss how Indo-Canadians fail to conform to Dosanjh's imaginary Anchors. Never mind the law and never mind applying it. Lets point our fingers at the group and say 'They failed to adopt Canadian Values'.

He's not saying that at all. You know that Dosanjh is an Indo-Canadian himself right?

[overthere]

Our ancestors were bastards. But then again, here's the thing, so were everyone else's ancestors! By our present cultural/social standards everyone in the world of two hundred years ago

"Ancestors"?

"200 years ago"?

The last Residential School closed in 1996. < But everybody has healed now, all is forgiven, Indians are sorry to be so troublesome by refusing to be white, and all are prepared to meet your expectations of assimilation>

[overthere]

The best thing about this thread is the title.

It predicted all that followed.

The White Mans Fear.

You can smell it.

[Argus]

So you'll let the dirty Indians keep those hilarious hats with feathers as long as they live where and how they are told?

Thanks man.

So you want to force natives to stay out in the bushes where there are no jobs and nothing to do so they can shuffle and dance for you on demand?

Why do you hate natives so much?

[PIK]

More like pissed off.

[PIK]

I live in the Ottawa valley and I know how the natives operate . They call themselves the keepers of then wild or what ever and they are the biggest bunch of poachers there is. They net pickerel during the spawning season and hunt deer and moose whenever they want. In Algonquin park, they have ruined lakes by going in with nets and such. So this native thing needs to end.

[Spiderfish]

The last Residential School closed in 1996. < But everybody has healed now, all is forgiven....

No, the Liberal Government will make it right. An apology from the pope, eliminating mandatory minimum sentences, and giving more money to the CBC will surely go a long way...

[Big Guy]

Perhaps you should find a mirror and ask yourself that. In my opinion your posts reek of bigotry and an arrogant paternalism towards non-whites.

What is your name, by the way? You've often sneered at others hiding behind anon Ids, yet you insult people every single day while hiding behind yours.

I would and have published my views under my real name - or had the publisher choose to print my views in the letter section of a variety of media under my real name. There is no post that I have made that I would be ashamed to add my real name to.

I doubt very much if you would have the courage to do the same.

I do not insult others. I post what views I consider to be distastefully bigoted, racist and xenophobic. If you feel that it is your views I am referring to then I suggest that you re-evaluate what you post.

[Guest]

I do not insult others. I post what views I consider to be distastefully bigoted, racist and xenophobic. If you feel that it is your views I am referring to then I suggest that you re-evaluate what you post.

Or just suggest, as people do time and time again, that you have no argument to the posted opinion except that the truth offends your sensibilities, so you fallback on the BRX macro.

You do have a macro, don't you? I wouldn't want you to get some kind of repetitive strain injury.

[Accountability Now]

So you'll let the dirty Indians keep those hilarious hats with feathers as long as they live where and how they are told?

Thanks man.

So do you always debate by making stuff up? Where did I even come close to saying that. Here is my first post to you which you conveniently ignored:

There are definitely some good First Nation groups most of which are in economically sound areas that allow for these communities to thrive. The issue comes up when you have a First Nation that constantly requires more than than what was outlined in the treaties and doesn't get it. For the most part these communities are in remote locations that any other group would have left if they did not get the "benefits" of living on a reserve. (Note....I put quotes around benefits to ensure you that I know there are more disadvantages than advantages to living on a reserve however there are some advantages that draw them to stay regardless of how bad the advantages are.

Ultimately, I see no end game on the First Nations issues until we are all part of the same society. No more us versus them. Perhaps this requires some sort of pay out or other financial assurances but the idea of of nation to nation is only half way solution when it needs to be all or none. I agree with Argus though, there are too many benefits for certain chiefs and friends of said chiefs for the Us versus Them to end.

Do you see that part in RED. Does any of that make it seem like I want them to stay where they are? Personally I think that all reserves should be banned and any natives who want to stay will be given their home and an appropriate piece of land. These remaining people can form a municipality or town and like I said become part of the same society. Of course this doesn't work for the Chiefs as this would mean losing out on precious government revenue that they get to rape from their people.

As I said, they are more than free to join Canada and not live on the reserves. Within our society their cultures and values will be respected the same way that all other cultures are. In fact, they would probably get more attention as the founding group.

[Big Guy]

Or just suggest, as people do time and time again, that you have no argument to the posted opinion except that the truth offends your sensibilities, so you fallback on the BRX macro.

You do have a macro, don't you? I wouldn't want you to get some kind of repetitive strain injury.

Perhaps what you consider to be the truth is what you wished was the truth. There is a difference.

And, "You do have a macro, don't you? I wouldn't want you to get some kind of repetitive strain injury." I think that is supposed to be some kind of insult. It appears I have hit a nerve and now you feel that you must retaliate. If you feel that my reference of bigotry, racism and xenophobia refers to your views then I suggest you review your posts. Sorry, I do not trade insults.

[Spiderfish]

I do not insult others. I post what views I consider to be distastefully bigoted, racist and xenophobic. If you feel that it is your views I am referring to then I suggest that you re-evaluate what you post.

Would your apparent perception and misinterpretation of those who read the article in the OP and agree with it as "trying to rationalize racism, bigotry and xenophobia" not be considered insulting others? Your perception may not necessarily be in line with reality.

[Spiderfish]

Perhaps what you consider to be the truth is what you wished was the truth. There is a difference.

Yes perhaps there's much of that going around.

[Guest]

Perhaps what you consider to be the truth is what you wished was the truth. There is a difference.

And, "You do have a macro, don't you? I wouldn't want you to get some kind of repetitive strain injury." I think that is supposed to be some kind of insult. It appears I have hit a nerve and now you feel that you must retaliate. If you feel that my reference of bigotry, racism and xenophobia refers to your views then I suggest you review your posts. Sorry, I do not trade insults.

It's not an insult, it's just a way of stating that you repeat yourself over and over by insulting posters with whom you disagree, but to whom you cannot come up with a rebuttal.

The only reason you don't "trade" insults is you have nothing to trade. You use the same insults all the time and we all have lots of them now.