bush_cheney2004 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 How would you feel if black people expressed the same sentiment towards their issues with authorities the same way you are? "Black people" already do so....have done so for generations. No big deal...very, very American concept. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 How would you feel if black people expressed the same sentiment towards their issues with authorities the same way you are? I'm not expressing my issues, but discussing the concerns of these protesters. As to Black people, they have expressed their concerns with Government in the same manner in the past. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 "Black people" already do so....have done so for generations. No big deal...very, very American concept. Indeed, further to that, it would be very interesting if they now actually have evidence supporting their claims.......... Quote
ReeferMadness Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Why is that? This group in Oregon has longstanding grievances over land usage and resources allocation, both issues that are growing concerns around the World (and could one day lead to the next World War). Despite the dog and pony show these several dozen protesters have brought forth, in less than two weeks, they have had discussions over their concerns with legislators from several Western States at the refuge and received mention from Federal legislators in Washington and Presidential hopefuls.............it would seem their methods are more effective at starting a national conversation over their issue then the tens of thousands of Occupy protesters that spent months camped out in city parks. The group in Oregon is not from Oregon and doesn't have the support of the people they claim to represent. They're a bunch of hypocrites. They claim to want to reclaim the land for "the people" but in fact the only people they're trying to help are ranchers, loggers and miners. The ranchers are getting land leased to them at a fraction of fair market price and in fact, other countries should be imposing trade sanctions because the artificially low prices constitute subsidies. The whole thing is a joke. The Hammonds may have been treated unfairly by the American justice system but they're hardly the first and won't be the last. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Ammon Bundy somehow swallowed his anti-government beliefs long enough to accept a $530,000 small business loan from the US government. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 It seems that the Bundy's are getting some (unwanted) reinforcements.........but are running low on smokes and coffee creamer. I wonder how long it is before the different groups start shooting at each other. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Wilber Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) You understand how the United States was created right? A small group of people, some say around 3% (probably more) of the population sought the removal of laws and taxes imposed on them by others....through the use of force. It seems you don't. They were laws imposed on them by a government in which they had no representation. These idiots have a vote just like every other citizen. Ah, America where the guys with the most and biggest guns get to dictate which laws will be obeyed and which will not. Edited January 12, 2016 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 It seems you don't. They were laws imposed on them by a government in which they had no representation. These idiots have a vote just like every other citizen. Ah, America where the guys why the most and biggest guns get to dictate which laws will be obeyed and which will not. Better go back and study more American history after the Revolution. Guns...guns...and more guns. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 I suspect these boys once they run out of oreo's and coffee creamer, and get a little pissed at each other when one or another takes the donations and heads off to the local bar and drinks it all up, will simply disappear into what will become something like another laughable episode of Hee Haw. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Better go back and study more American history after the Revolution. Guns...guns...and more guns.Yep, I think we all get that picture. When's the next high school mass shooting planned for? Quote
Wilber Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) I wonder how long it is before the different groups start shooting at each other. Yup. Shut the power off, don't let anyone in or out and let them stew, or freeze. Edited January 12, 2016 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Yup. Shut the power off, don't let anyone in or out and let them stew, or freeze. Can't do that, 'cause Canadians would have to go back to watching crappy CanCon with no guns or violent Americans. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 It seems you don't. They were laws imposed on them by a government in which they had no representation. These idiots have a vote just like every other citizen. I understand it quite fine, in this case, these protesters concerns are born out of the fact that the United States Federal Government owns ~1/3 rd of all the land in the 50 States, of that, owning 50% of the land in the Western States (about the same total area as Germany, France and Spain combined)......even though the US Constitution never intend the Federal Government to own land, outside of land voted on by local peoples and sold by the States to the Federal Government for military bases.......hence the Federal Government is acting in bad faith outside of the Constitution........and is why several of the GOP contenders (Rubio, Cruz and Paul) have called for Federal land divestment, returning control to State and local Government as it was intended in the US Constitution. Ah, America where the guys why the most and biggest guns get to dictate which laws will be obeyed and which will not. Ah American, where the people have a lawful right to protest and make known grievances to the Government for redress......its too bad the Federal Government is breaking the law...... Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Can't do that, 'cause Canadians would have to go back to watching crappy CanCon with no guns or violent Americans. What's that got to do with terrorists in Oregon. Are you derailing the thread? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 I wonder how long it is before the different groups start shooting at each other. I doubt ever. The Bundy's have stated Federal Law Enforcement has made it known to them they have no intention of entering the refuge. Quote
Wilber Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) I understand it quite fine, in this case, these protesters concerns are born out of the fact that the United States Federal Government owns ~1/3 rd of all the land in the 50 States, of that, owning 50% of the land in the Western States (about the same total area as Germany, France and Spain combined)......even though the US Constitution never intend the Federal Government to own land, outside of land voted on by local peoples and sold by the States to the Federal Government for military bases.......hence the Federal Government is acting in bad faith outside of the Constitution........and is why several of the GOP contenders (Rubio, Cruz and Paul) have called for Federal land divestment, returning control to State and local Government as it was intended in the US Constitution. So you would have no problem with a bunch of armed yahoos setting up camp on any Crown land and dictating to your government how it will be used. Ah American, where the people have a lawful right to protest and make known grievances to the Government for redress......its too bad the Federal Government is breaking the law...... You obviously approve of protesting at the point of a gun. Civiilized countries use their courts to determine who is breaking the law. Edited January 12, 2016 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 ...You obviously approve of protesting at the point of a gun. Civiilized countries use their courts to determine who is breaking the law. Nonsense..."civilized" countries use guns all the time. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 So you would have no problem with a bunch of armed yahoos setting up camp on any Crown land and dictating to your government how it will be used. Canadians, unlike Americans, don't have enshrined Rights to Property..... You obviously approve of protesting at the point of a gun. Civiilized countries use their courts to determine who is breaking the law. I don't know that these protesters in Oregon have pointed firearms at anyone.....none the less, Americans have enshrined rights to firearms. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 I don't know that these protesters in Oregon have pointed firearms at anyone.....none the less, Americans have enshrined rights to firearms. Yep...right to own and bear arms. All legal like. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Yep...right to own and bear arms. All legal like. Exactly, and more so in this case, Rights enshrined in the 1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. The Bundy's have stated they petitioned the Federal Government numerous times, to numerous agencies, several months ago......with no response. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) Yep...right to own and bear arms. All legal like. Is it all legal like for a bunch of gun toting rubes to occupy a federal government building? I thought there was something about law and order I heard somewhere. Edited January 12, 2016 by On Guard for Thee Quote
Wilber Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Canadians, unlike Americans, don't have enshrined Rights to Property.....So you would have no problem with it. I don't know that these protesters in Oregon have pointed firearms at anyone.....none the less, Americans have enshrined rights to firearms So they could have left their guns at home then. Apparently having the right to firearms means having the right to do whatever they want with them, including coercing their country's constitutionally elected government. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 I'm not expressing my issues, but discussing the concerns of these protesters. As to Black people, they have expressed their concerns with Government in the same manner in the past. Now show me a picture of a state trooper shaking hands with an armed black man in the same manner they did with an armed white conservative rancher in Oregon. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Derek 2.0 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 So you would have no problem with it. In this example in Oregon, no, I don't. So they could have left their guns at home then. Apparently having the right to firearms means having the right to do whatever they want with them, including coercing their country's constitutionally elected government. Why would they leave their guns at home? They have a Right to them. The only "coercing" is on the part of the US Federal Government, which is directly in conflict with Article 1, Section 8, clause 17 of the US Constitution: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of Particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings When did the State of Oregon cede control over the land, that became the refuge, to the US Federal Government? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Posted January 12, 2016 Now show me a picture of a state trooper shaking hands with an armed black man in the same manner they did with an armed white conservative rancher in Oregon. I have no intention of repainting the goal lines. Quote
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