terrorists occupy gov't office in Oregon

[Argus]

You're assertion is devoid of reality.

Your assertion is that there are so many wacko insurrectionists in the US that the place is basically a failed state, and any attempt to reign them in or make them obey the law will cause anarchy. You consider that to be reality?

[Derek 2.0]

Your assertion is that there are so many wacko insurrectionists in the US that the place is basically a failed state, and any attempt to reign them in or make them obey the law will cause anarchy. You consider that to be reality?

Has the FBI stormed the refuge as you suggested? If not, why?

[jacee]

Unlike say Oka, where the Mohawks killed a QPP officer

Not true.

Officially 'unknown' source of the bullet that killed LeMay.

Unofficially, SQ bullet.

Like the ones that earlier killed two Mohawk warriors, as LeMay's investigation was about to reveal.

(But you know that, because attempting to slide that false propaganda in here is a dead giveaway, Derek.)

and set-up a roadblock on one the major routes into Montreal,

True.

But the people occupying the Pines were not left alone like in Oregon, but harassed constantly by an inflexible Mayor.

Your comparison isn't accurate and is a huge propaganda red herring here.

In this case, with the locals actually coming out opposed to Bundy Clan, I doubt many more will be emboldened by this protest.......mostly if this group ends up leaving with their tails between their legs........now if Goliath goes in there and guns down the lot, maybe kill a few of the children there with hydrogen cyanide, like they did at Mt Carmel, they only create more emboldened Davids, and turn this groups into Martyrs.......martyrs can't be locked up or killed.

True.

.

Edited January 10, 2016 by jacee

[Derek 2.0]

Not true.

Officially 'unknown' source of the bullet that killed LeMay.\

Unknown as in they weren't able to determine which Mohawk warrior killed him..........

[jacee]

Unknown as in they weren't able to determine which Mohawk warrior killed him..........

Not true Derek.

It was an SQ bullet and you know it.

As were the ones that killed two Mohawks, as LeMay's internal investigation was about to reveal.

And you know that too.

And pushing your false propaganda is a big derail here.

.

[Derek 2.0]

Not true Derek.

It was an SQ bullet and you know it.

As were the ones that killed two Mohawks, as LeMay's internal investigation was about to reveal.

And you know that too.

And pushing your false propaganda is a big derail here.

.

From Warrior publications:

One SQ officer is shot & killed: Cpl. Marcel Lemay, a 31-year old. The bullet entered through his left armpit, unprotected by his bullet-proof vest. He is killed by a steel-tipped ‘full metal-jacket’ .223 calibre bullet (the killing weapon is never found & it is unclear who fired the fatal shot—Mohawk or SQ friendly-fire?).

Police Forces don't use full metal jacket ammo........

[jacee]

From Warrior publications:

Police Forces don't use full metal jacket ammo........

Derail

And BS.

The real contrast to the current situation is that the people occupying the Pines were harassed to leave, so the situation escalated, whereas the Arizona interlopers in Oregon are being left alone.

.

Edited January 10, 2016 by jacee

[Derek 2.0]

Derail

And BS.

Discussing the similarities between the Oka standoff (or Waco, Ruby Ridge etc) and the resulting violence, contrasted with this current standoff in Oregon isn't a derail. What is a derail is you broaching conspiracy theories, sans evidence. If you wish to discuss Oka conspiracies, who killed Kennedy, if Martians landed in Roswell or if Professional Wrestling is fake, start another thread. I won't continue on with you here.

[jacee]

Discussing the similarities between the Oka standoff (or Waco, Ruby Ridge etc) and the resulting violence, contrasted with this current standoff in Oregon isn't a derail.

Agreed.

The Mohawks had more legal ground for their occupation, but were harassed, leading to confrontation.

The hands off approach to the Oregon situation has avoided confrontation so far ... but it's early yet.

What is a derail is you broaching conspiracy theories, sans evidence. If you wish to discuss Oka conspiracies ... I won't continue on with you here.

You derailed by presenting an unsubstantiated conclusion.

We both know why the results of the official investigation were never revealed.

So stop trolling misinformation.

.

Edited January 10, 2016 by jacee

[Argus]

Has the FBI stormed the refuge as you suggested? If not, why?

We both know such decisions are made at the political level.

[Derek 2.0]

We both know such decisions are made at the political level.

Of course it is.......your point?

[jacee]

Heres What Happened When These Unarmed Native American Sisters Defended Their Land from the Feds

.

[Derek 2.0]

Heres What Happened When These Unarmed Native American Sisters Defended Their Land from the Feds

.

Another example would be the Native American occupation of Alcatraz during the Nixon administration........the result, which is often overlooked, the Nixon administration ceded a whack of land to Natives across the West, in addition to more local control and governance on Native land.......and the most noteworthy, the massive Alaskan land claims settlement, which to this day has had largely positive results for Alaska's three major native peoples.

[On Guard for Thee]

According to ballistics expert Jean Dion who testified at trial, yes they do.

[jacee]

Another example would be the Native American occupation of Alcatraz during the Nixon administration........the result, which is often overlooked, the Nixon administration ceded a whack of land to Natives across the West, in addition to more local control and governance on Native land

Not an armed occupation.

.......and the most noteworthy, the massive Alaskan land claims settlement, which to this day has had largely positive results for Alaska's three major native peoples.

Not an occupation.

Neither is comparable to the situation in Oregon, which is also being carried out by people from another state with no claim or interest in that land at all.

.

Edited January 11, 2016 by jacee

[Derek 2.0]

It seems that the Bundy's are getting some (unwanted) reinforcements.........but are running low on smokes and coffee creamer.

[jacee]

"French Vanilla" coffee creamer. Lol

[Derek 2.0]

An interesting op-ed from Ron Paul, in which he makes several good point over the current stand-off:

The Hammonds were prosecuted under a federal terrorism statute. This may seem odd, but many prosecutors are stretching the definition of terrorism in order to, as was the case here, apply the mandatory minimum sentences or otherwise violate defendants’ constitutional rights. The first judge to hear the case refused to grant the government’s sentencing request, saying his conscience was shocked by the thought of applying the mandatory minimums to the Hammonds. Fortunately for the government, it was able to appeal the decision to judges whose consciences were not shocked by draconian sentences.

I wonder how many on the "left" would be supportive of the Hammonds if they were minorities? Inversely, how many on the "right" that currently support the Hammonds would care if they were minorities or native Americans?

Furthermore, to those who feel the Federal Government should go in guns blazing:

Sadly, but not surprisingly, some progressives who normally support civil liberties have called for the government to use deadly force to end the occupation at the refuge. These progressives are the mirror image of conservatives who (properly) attack gun control and the Patriot Act as tyrannical, yet support the use of police-state tactics against unpopular groups such as Muslims.

I think Paul speaks here clearly to the folly of assigning people to the "right" or the "left", when clearly that forgets ones social values on personal liberty, "up" and "down"....

Situations like the one in Oregon could become commonplace as the continued failure of Keynesian economics and militaristic foreign policy is used to justify expanding government power. These new power grabs will increase the threats to our personal and economic security. The resulting chaos will cause many more Americans to resist government policies, with some even turning to violence, while the burden of government regulations and taxes will lead to a growing black market. The government will respond by becoming even more authoritarian, which will lead to further unrest.[/size]

A point I'm in full agreement on, and is why I feel the US Federal response has been muted on this current protest......simply put, the FBI could clean these two dozen guys clocks, but in doing so, would create two dozen martyrs......

[Wilber]

When you get right down to it, this is a case of a group of people seeking to circumvent or change laws by the use of armed force. I don't think any reasonable, thinking person on the left or right would seriously think this is a good thing even if they had some sympathy for the position of the occupiers.

[Derek 2.0]

When you get right down to it, this is a case of a group of people seeking to circumvent or change laws by the use of armed force.

You understand how the United States was created right? A small group of people, some say around 3% (probably more) of the population sought the removal of laws and taxes imposed on them by others....through the use of force.

I don't think any reasonable, thinking person on the left or right would seriously think this is a good thing even if they had some sympathy for the position of the occupiers.

I think most reasonable people think the creation of the United States did more good than bad for civilization.

[On Guard for Thee]

You understand how the United States was created right? A small group of people, some say around 3% (probably more) of the population sought the removal of laws and taxes imposed on them by others....through the use of force.

I think most reasonable people think the creation of the United States did more good than bad for civilization.

And some people seem to still have their head stuck back in 1812. The times they are a changin' hopefully.

[The_Squid]

You understand how the United States was created right? A small group of people, some say around 3% (probably more) of the population sought the removal of laws and taxes imposed on them by others....through the use of force.

I think most reasonable people think the creation of the United States did more good than bad for civilization.

Once again, Derek2.0 is talking in circles. One event that happened in 1776 has nothing to do with the nutbars that took over a gov't building/nature reserve by armed thugs.

[Derek 2.0]

Once again, Derek2.0 is talking in circles. One event that happened in 1776 has nothing to do with the nutbars that took over a gov't building/nature reserve by armed thugs.

Why is that? This group in Oregon has longstanding grievances over land usage and resources allocation, both issues that are growing concerns around the World (and could one day lead to the next World War). Despite the dog and pony show these several dozen protesters have brought forth, in less than two weeks, they have had discussions over their concerns with legislators from several Western States at the refuge and received mention from Federal legislators in Washington and Presidential hopefuls.............it would seem their methods are more effective at starting a national conversation over their issue then the tens of thousands of Occupy protesters that spent months camped out in city parks.

To tie this into the American Revolution, the lack of representative dialogue over issues is what led to the revolution (and a civil war a century later). Doing this, if it results in what the protesters feel is positive action, could be the peaceful release value now instead of another armed and violent conflict in the decades ahead........when due to further globalization and increasing populations straining the World's resources, as member Eyeball has so rightfully put it in the past, the animals start circling the water hole.

Though I might not agree entirely with their methods, or even all of their concerns, I will give it to them, they are attempting to stand by their convictions with the possibility of losing their lives, or more likely, their personal freedom for a very long time.......a might bit more skin in the game then other protesters that achieve far less, with far more.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Derek 2.0

[jacee]

Why is that? This group in Oregon has longstanding grievances over land usage and resources allocation, both issues that are growing concerns around the World (and could one day lead to the next World War). Despite the dog and pony show these several dozen protesters have brought forth, in less than two weeks, they have had discussions over their concerns with legislators from several Western States at the refugee and received mention from Federal legislators in Washington and Presidential hopefuls.............it would seem their methods are more effective at starting a national conversation over their issue then the tens of thousands of Occupy protesters that spent months camped out in city parks.

There were intelligent and widespread conversations about Occupy, which spread everywhere and the effects still rippling today.

These gun-slinging French-vanilla-creamer sipping snackless wonders are starting a conversation only about whether they'll have to slink away humiliated, or will go out guns blazing and die from stupidity.

To tie this into the American Revolution, the lack of representative dialogue over issues is what led to the revolution (and a civil war a century later). Doing this, if it results in what the protesters feel is positive action, could be the peaceful release value now instead of another armed and violent conflict in the decades ahead........when due to further globalization and increasing populations straining the World's resources, as member Eyeball has so rightfully put it in the past, the animals start circling the water hole.

Though I might not agree entirely with their methods, or even all of their concerns, I will give it to them, they are attempting to stand by their convictions with the possibility of losing their lives, or more likely, their personal freedom for a very long time.......a might bit more skin in the game then other protesters that achieve far less, with far more.

I see. So protesters are 'good'if they are stupid enough to carry guns to somebody else's fight, unwanted, and appear to have a death wish.

You have very strange values. Lol

What do you think their deaths/incarceration will achieve?

Releasing the Hammond's ... in Oregon?

Changing the grazing rules ... back home in Arizona?

Lol

.

[eyeball]

You understand how the United States was created right? A small group of people, some say around 3% (probably more) of the population sought the removal of laws and taxes imposed on them by others....through the use of force.

I think most reasonable people think the creation of the United States did more good than bad for civilization.

How would you feel if black people expressed the same sentiment towards their issues with authorities the same way you are?

Edited January 11, 2016 by eyeball