B.C. condo language dispute sparks human rights complaint (merged with

WestCanMan · December 28, 2015

If two people freely agree to sign a contract in Klingon, then that Klingon contract would be legally enforceable. The defendant would just need to hire a certified translator to translate it in the event of a contract dispute in court.

I've read Quebec's Bill 101 and even it explicitly states that a legally binding contract can be signed in any language the two parties agree to as long as the business has offered to present a French version.

Should the other party turn down the offer, then no French version need exist.

Are you saying BC's linguistic laws are even stricter than Quebec's?

Sure, if they agree. The person who filed the human rights complaint clearly didn't agree to conduct any busy in a foreign language.

Argus · December 28, 2015

I'd say the biggest problem facing the world including the west is our failure to ensure the economy is just and fair. Resentment against that is building everywhere and even more so where people exacerbate things by introducing racial or cultural aspects to the failure.

The problem is people whining about 'fair and just' don't actually want fair and just. They want equality of results, not equality of opportunity. They want the dumb guy to be as well-rewarded as the smart guy, the lazy guy as well-rewarded as the energetic go-getter, the guy who dropped out of high school to park cars as well-rewarded as the guy who put himself through university, studying his ass off every night. And that sort of society doesn't work. Human nature won't allow it. Without a strong economic incentive nobody will strive to get ahead, take chances, or push themselves.

As far as racial and cultural aspects of failure, you and other progressives are responsible for that by gleefully introducing millions of people from a third world environment into an economy where most can never be more than cheap labour. But don't worry, the big corporations thank you.

Argus · December 28, 2015

You prescribe fear and you preach loathing.

I'm not afraid, and the only thing I "preach" is logic, which probably frustrates you since nothing you believe in is based on logic.

Argus · December 28, 2015

When a person is used to moving around all his childhood, he definitely sees the world differently from the one who was raised In the confines of his ghetto.

You make a lot of broad assumptions. In fact, I'm an air force brat who moved around a lot in my youth. I always marvel at people I know who grew up in one place, who still know people they went to kindergarten with, who know their whole neighborhood. I feel I was deprived of that kind of stability and comfort myself. Unlike you, I don't feel that I should deprive others of it for no good reason. I don't feel it's right to flood their towns or cities with foreigners just to tickle my sense of how open-minded and noble I am about other ethnicities and races.

WestCanMan · December 28, 2015

You guys are all getting too worried about the use of the term ghetto.

The main problem with "ghettos" is not that an inferior race of people lives there, it's that people who live in ghettos are able to function primarily in their 1st language almost all of the time. That means that learning the language and culture of the rest of the country comes a lot more slowly to them than it would to people who tear off the band-aid more quickly by going out and living in a mixed environment.

That creates obvious problems for them when they go seeking employment with their 100 word vocabularies. They can get stuck working in low paying jobs with other members of their culture where they still don't learn, and their children grow up in poverty which comes with it's own set of challenges.

Another problem is that networking is a big deal. If you socialize with people who have good jobs, sooner or later your friends come up with opportunities for you. If your highest paid friend is working below the poverty line what chance is there that anyone in your social circle will be able to get you your big break?

No, quebec isn't a ghetto, but if someone absolutely refuses to ever learn english then obviously they are just limiting their own career potential. Likewise if an english speaking person chooses to learn certain foreign languages it can open opportunities for them as well. Living in a bubble is rarely the best choice, but at the same time it's ridiculous that someone would have to learn Mandarin to be included in their Annual General Meetings. Common sense might be a good idea.

Machjo · December 28, 2015

Sure, if they agree. The person who filed the human rights complaint clearly didn't agree to conduct any busy in a foreign language.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he probably did sign a document typed in English that did not state anything about the corporation's linguistic policy, and so he should have a right to be served in English.

I think the disagreement is on WHY he should be served in English. If I understood TimG correctly, his argument is that the corporation should serve him in English just because English is the de facto language of Government in BC and that he should have a fundamental right to understand the corporation's correspondence with him in whatever language he chooses, that that alone is reason enough to guarantee him service in English.

My argument is that the only reason he should be served in English is because the agreement he signed could have given him a reasonable reason to believe (by virtue of the language in which it was presented to him with no explanation of the corporation's linguistic policy) that the corporation would serve him in English. In other words, my argument is that the corporation should serve him in English not because of whatever language the Government uses in its internal operations or because he has a fundamental right to an interpreter in the language of his choice, but only because the contract gave a reasonable impression that the corporation would serve him in English. So the disagreement here is not on whether he should be served in English, but on WHY he should be served in English.

Machjo · December 28, 2015

One of the most important issues facing western countries which take in immigrants is making certain we can integrate them into our societies. When you fail, you develop angry blocks of resentful 'foreigners' living within your borders who feel more kinship with foreigners than with their supposed fellow natives. We can see how this leads to violence in Britain, France, Sweden, and other countries.

Did we not use to do that through the separate school system (still in effect albeit in a modified form today, the Indian Act, the Indian residential school system, the Gradual Civilization Act, the Chinese Exclusion Act, the forced relocation of Japanese Canadians from the Pacific Coast onland, the Official Languages Act, and the abrogation of the freedom of German and Ukrainian Canadians to send their children to school in their languages (which is still in effect today)? Is anyone suggesting we return to these?

Machjo · December 28, 2015

The problem is people whining about 'fair and just' don't actually want fair and just. They want equality of results, not equality of opportunity. They want the dumb guy to be as well-rewarded as the smart guy, the lazy guy as well-rewarded as the energetic go-getter, the guy who dropped out of high school to park cars as well-rewarded as the guy who put himself through university, studying his ass off every night. And that sort of society doesn't work. Human nature won't allow it. Without a strong economic incentive nobody will strive to get ahead, take chances, or push themselves.

As far as racial and cultural aspects of failure, you and other progressives are responsible for that by gleefully introducing millions of people from a third world environment into an economy where most can never be more than cheap labour. But don't worry, the big corporations thank you.

Many Chinese (which includes Hongkongese and Taiwanese and Singaporeans among others) are very well educated and wealthy to boot. From what I could see in Scarborough was that they all seemed gainfully employed in the free market too.

Contracts are part of the free market, government administration is not.

The Government has no moral right to try to slant job opportunities in favour of any particular ethnic group by imposing its,language onto the free market.

The Chinese succeed in spite of Chinese having no place in the Government sector. The English and the French still can't find work even when the Government gives them the advantage by adopting their languages for its administration.

And because they still can't find work, they then ask the government to try to slant the private sector in their favour too.

I'm not a fanatical free marketeer and the recognize the value of government services in key sectors of society, but I don't see why the government should over regulate language policy in the private sector.

And yes, a privately owned strata corporation is a private business.

Argus · December 28, 2015

Did we not use to do that through the separate school system (still in effect albeit in a modified form today, the Indian Act, the Indian residential school system, the Gradual Civilization Act, the Chinese Exclusion Act, the forced relocation of Japanese Canadians from the Pacific Coast onland, the Official Languages Act, and the abrogation of the freedom of German and Ukrainian Canadians to send their children to school in their languages (which is still in effect today)?

No.

Machjo · December 28, 2015

You guys are all getting too worried about the use of the term ghetto.

The main problem with "ghettos" is not that an inferior race of people lives there, it's that people who live in ghettos are able to function primarily in their 1st language almost all of the time. That means that learning the language and culture of the rest of the country comes a lot more slowly to them than it would to people who tear off the band-aid more quickly by going out and living in a mixed environment.

That creates obvious problems for them when they go seeking employment with their 100 word vocabularies. They can get stuck working in low paying jobs with other members of their culture where they still don't learn, and their children grow up in poverty which comes with it's own set of challenges.

Another problem is that networking is a big deal. If you socialize with people who have good jobs, sooner or later your friends come up with opportunities for you. If your highest paid friend is working below the poverty line what chance is there that anyone in your social circle will be able to get you your big break?

No, quebec isn't a ghetto, but if someone absolutely refuses to ever learn english then obviously they are just limiting their own career potential. Likewise if an english speaking person chooses to learn certain foreign languages it can open opportunities for them as well. Living in a bubble is rarely the best choice, but at the same time it's ridiculous that someone would have to learn Mandarin to be included in their Annual General Meetings. Common sense might be a good idea.

From my observation, the Chinese in Scarborough (including those with weak English) were doing quite well for themselves. Yet just today I was begged in English by a white man.. Come to think of it, I don't ever remember seeing a Chinese beggar in Canada. In China, yes, but not in Canada. Maybe you have.

Machjo · December 28, 2015

No.

No what?

Assimilation policies never happened in Canada's history?

WestCoastRunner · December 28, 2015

From my observation, the Chinese in Scarborough (including those with weak English) were doing quite well for themselves. Yet just today I was begged in English by a white man.. Come to think of it, I don't ever remember seeing a Chinese beggar in Canada. In China, yes, but not in Canada. Maybe you have.

None here in BC that I have seen.

Machjo · December 28, 2015

None here in BC that I have seen.

That's impressive considering that they don't even benefit from the Official Languages Act to reserve jobs for members of their community like it does for the English and the French.

WestCoastRunner · December 28, 2015

That's impressive considering that they don't even benefit from the Official Languages Act to reserve jobs for members of their community like it does for the English and the French.

Well I'm sure we will soon hear a response that all Chinese in BC are wealthy foreigners.

eyeball · December 28, 2015

The problem is people whining about 'fair and just' don't actually want fair and just. They want equality of results, not equality of opportunity. They want the dumb guy to be as well-rewarded as the smart guy, the lazy guy as well-rewarded as the energetic go-getter, the guy who dropped out of high school to park cars as well-rewarded as the guy who put himself through university, studying his ass off every night.

You do realize why people respond with bwahaha's to this sort of nonsense don't you? It's like something I'd expect from Ezra Levant when he's pissed to the gills. Edited December 28, 2015 by eyeball

Machjo · December 28, 2015

Well I'm sure we will soon hear a response that all Chinese in BC are wealthy foreigners.

I don't know. I have not been to BC outside of the airport for many years.

To be fair, I'd only spent a few days in Scarborough, but from that observation, I could see a prosperous Chinese-speaking economy. Nearly all of the shops had Chinese signs and the staff spoke Chinese nearly everywhere I went (bearing in mind my Chinese friends chose the restaurants).

But even that gave me a good idea of how prosperous it was.

Machjo · December 28, 2015

In Ottawa likewise I have generally found the Chinese to be very entrepreneurial.

WestCoastRunner · December 28, 2015

In Ottawa likewise I have generally found the Chinese to be very entrepreneurial.

It's just not the Chinese. Many immigrants 'and refugees' have this trait to run their own businesses. I have seen it with many of my kids friends parents. I suppose because they are up against prejudice of being hired so they have to try harder to create jobs for themselves and their families and in turn contribute to the local economy with taxes paid and jobs.

eyeball · December 28, 2015

I'm not afraid, and the only thing I "preach" is logic, which probably frustrates you since nothing you believe in is based on logic.

A logic based on your really weird notions about White guilt and the sort of thinking you imagine is going on in the heads of progressives.

It's no wonder you're so....well, I can't say it because it'll just get deleted.

Machjo · December 28, 2015

It's just not the Chinese. Many immigrants 'and refugees' have this trait to run their own businesses. I have seen it with many of my kids friends parents. I suppose because they are up against prejudice of being hired so they have to try harder to create jobs for themselves and their families and in turn contribute to the local economy with taxes paid and jobs.

You'remind probably correct, but I prefer to stick to what I know best so I can back it up when challenged.

I've seen many Arab businesses in Ottawa, but I can't say that I have many very close Arab friends.

Many Persians I know are in educated professions (physician, lawyer, accountant, professor), though I've met Persian entrepreneurs too.

Though most of the Chinese a I know are of the entrepreneurial class, I am aware and know of some lawyers, physicians, etc. there too.

Machjo · December 28, 2015

A logic based on your really weird notions about White guilt and the sort of thinking you imagine is going on in the heads of progressives.

It's no wonder you're so....well, I can't say it because it'll just get deleted.

I feel no white guilt at all, probaby because I also oppose white privilege, no special legal advantage for this or that linguistic community beyond what is necessary.

WestCoastRunner · December 28, 2015

I feel no white guilt at all, probaby because I also oppose white privilege, no special legal advantage for this or that linguistic community beyond what is necessary.

I don't think his post was directed towards you.

Argus · December 29, 2015

The Government has no moral right to try to slant job opportunities in favour of any particular ethnic group by imposing its,language onto the free market.

This country has official languages. People are informed of that when seeking to immigrate, and that a degree of proficiency is necessary before attaining citizenship. Any immigrant who finds this oppressive is free to turn in their passport and go home, and I urge them to do so.

WestCoastRunner · December 29, 2015

This country has official languages. People are informed of that when seeking to immigrate, and that a degree of proficiency is necessary before attaining citizenship. Any immigrant who finds this oppressive is free to turn in their passport and go home, and I urge them to do so.

I have worked with many immigrants in the IT industry with limited English skills and yet they attain citizenship. Hmmmm.

And this would include a young mother working to bring her young son from India. She succeeded, here in BC. Limited English skills but a top notch computer programmer.

Edited December 29, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

Argus · December 29, 2015

That's impressive considering that they don't even benefit from the Official Languages Act to reserve jobs for members of their community like it does for the English and the French.

Again, I would suggest that any Chinese who do not wish to become Canadian is free to go home any time they want. I'd even support the government paying their way as long as they surrendered their passports.