Is JT really going to ban spanking?

[eyeball]

Things like this convince me that individual wearable data recorders will be the norm as people - parents, teachers, and kids alike seek to protect themselves from one another. Mostly though we'll need a means to defend ourselves from the overzealousness of officials charged with enforcing laws that are designed to protect us, as ironic that sounds.

[Wilber]

I got the strap once in grade 6. I didn't think it was fair at the time. As a matter of fact it really pissed me off for a little while and I got no sympathy from my parents, but it sure as heck didn't ruin me. It also helped teach me a good lesson. Sometimes life isn't fair so get on with it.

[On Guard for Thee]

My point is the standard for using force on one's own child is different than the standard for the use of force on other adults or other children because of the nature of the parent-child relationship. That is what the current law attempts to codify and even if the law is removed we would still expect crown prosecutors and police to understand the difference. However, that also means that it will be more likely that parents face malicious prosecution by crown and/or police that take a too literal interpretation of the law.

That is why the law should be left as is where 'reasonable' could have a interpretation that changes over time. For example, I do not think the use of violence as 'after-the-fact' punishment for misbehavior is necessary at any time. We could adjust the definition of reasonable to exclude that while keeping the provision.

Bullshit! Children are children who ever their parents are. Beating them f***s them up. Period.

[TimG]

Bullshit! Children are children who ever their parents are. Beating them f***s them up. Period.

I suggest you go back and read the thread. If you can demonstrate you understand the nuance in the argument then you might have something useful to say. As it stands you are simply showing that your reading comprehension skills are lacking. Edited December 25, 2015 by TimG

[Machjo]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/12/21/liberal-government-commits-to-repealing-spanking-law.html

Great! Criminalizing "reasonable" discipline of children. Child Abuse is already illegal in Canada, this will just prove to ruin families if a parent is charged for "reasonably" physically correcting a child's behaviour.

How does a commission dealing with Residential Schools have any influence over how a parent disciplines their child?

This also targets minority families far more than white families as physical discipline is a cultural practice more than anything. There was a thread I started a year or two ago about a father that skated after he slapped his daughter in the face killing her. Member cybercoma defended the decision because of the spanking law. So I guess that'll be done with after JT blinding accepts all recommendations.

Does this mean a wife spanking her husband in the bedroom will now be illegal? Would his encouraging her make him an accomplice to the act?

[eyeball]

Only if he encourages her outside the bedroom, assuming we've established the bedroom truly is a state-free zone.

[WestCoastRunner]

Until I see studies that show that psychological attempts at behaviour modification are more effective than lovingly applied corporal punishment, I will believe that corporal punishment, applied correctly, is a viable and efficient positive behaviour modification technique to use on children.

How many studies do you need to read to show that 'lovingly applied corporal punishment is ......' is not an effective positive behaviour modification technique.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/02/06/children-physical-punishment-study_n_1258351.html

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx

https://newrepublic.com/article/119469/adrian-peterson-expert-explains-long-term-effects-child-abuse

[Big Guy]

How many studies do you need to read to show that 'lovingly applied corporal punishment is ......' is not an effective positive behaviour modification technique.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/02/06/children-physical-punishment-study_n_1258351.html

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx

https://newrepublic.com/article/119469/adrian-peterson-expert-explains-long-term-effects-child-abuse

Thank you for taking the time to share those references. I have read them and my attitude has not changed.

I do understand that any physical contact with a child instils fear and can lead to aggression later. I have no doubt that studies have indicated the possible negative affects on children.

BUT

Where is the long term comparison between those brought up under corporal punishment and those brought up with "psychological behaviour modification" - the "time out" generation?

How many children of the past lived to adulthood because they stopped playing with matches through "fear of a smack on the bum" or waited for the parent before crossing the street through "fear" or held the hand of parents and grandparents next to a busy street because of "fear"? I do not know - do you?

How many children have got themselves killed because the psychology of time outs, discussions of responsibility and "disappointments" were not enough to keep them in sight of parents on the beach, or walking on the questionable ice, or chasing that dog into the road or sticking that paper clip into the outlet or reaching up to see what was in that pan on the stove or ....? I do not know - do you?

I do know that well disciplined children are far more appreciated when visiting and allow some breathing room for parents.

I am sure that corporal punishment applied with care had saved many lives - I do not know how many lives have been saved through these "new" methods.

Perhaps I am behind the times but it worked for me and I am pleased with how my children turned out. They have expressed no resentment for the way they were brought up and my son has referenced a time he remembers getting a spanking that he now says was well deserved. He and his spouse do not believe in corporal punishment. But I wait to see how my grandkids turn out.

Thank you for taking the time to try to change my opinion but it has not changed.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Big Guy

[Machjo]

I got the strap once in grade 6. I didn't think it was fair at the time. As a matter of fact it really pissed me off for a little while and I got no sympathy from my parents, but it sure as heck didn't ruin me. It also helped teach me a good lesson. Sometimes life isn't fair so get on with it.

The only lesson you learnt was don't get caught next time. Two basic kinds of parenting past a certain age:

1. If I catch you shoplifting I'll spank you.

2. Don't steal because it's wrong. People work hard for their property. Etc.

He learns a different lesson from each example. From the first: Don't do it when the cops are around.

[overthere]

Sigh. If they ban spanking how will Mistress Beatrice make a living?

And what will I do every Friday at 8 PM?

Edited December 25, 2015 by overthere

[G Huxley]

I think the logic should be pretty obvious, if it's not OK to do to adults (unless consented). It's not OK to do to minors.

The law is there to protect Canadian citizens, that includes minors as well as adults.

It's ironic that the same people whining about hijabs here will consent to beating kids.

Edited December 25, 2015 by G Huxley

[Wilber]

The only lesson you learnt was don't get caught next time. Two basic kinds of parenting past a certain age:

1. If I catch you shoplifting I'll spank you.

2. Don't steal because it's wrong. People work hard for their property. Etc.

He learns a different lesson from each example. From the first: Don't do it when the cops are around.

Or maybe just don't do it period. Why do you think 1 & 2 are mutually exclusive or don't you think actions should have consequences?

[TimG]

How many studies do you need to read to show that 'lovingly applied corporal punishment is ......' is not an effective positive behaviour modification technique.

Why is this relevant? The law already recognizes that some types of physical force are not allowed to be used against a child for whatever reason. The issue is you cannot be a parent without using force against your child from time to time. That force could be simply a case of a picking a screaming child and forcing them into a car seat but it is still force that would never be appropriate if you applied the same force to an adult for the same reason. The people calling for a change to the law don't seem to understand that you are asking for all force to be outlawed - not just 'after-the-fact' corporal punishment. It makes no sense. If corporal punishment is the issue then address that by tightening up the definition of 'reasonable' under law. You don't help anyone by leaving caring parents open to prosecution by over zealous police or angry ex-spouses. Edited December 26, 2015 by TimG

[On Guard for Thee]

Why is this relevant? The law already recognizes that some types of physical force are not allowed to be used against a child for whatever reason. The issue is you cannot be a parent without using force against your child from time to time. That force could be simply a case of a picking a screaming child and forcing them into a car seat but it is still force that would never be appropriate if you applied the same force to an adult for the same reason. The people calling for a change to the law don't seem to understand that you are asking for all force to be outlawed - not just 'after-the-fact' corporal punishment. It makes no sense. If corporal punishment is the issue then address that by tightening up the definition of 'reasonable' under law. You don't help anyone by leaving caring parents open to prosecution by over zealous police or angry ex-spouses.

Forcing a child into a car seat is for their safety. Beating them is to satisfy some sort of weird attempt at applying force in perhaps the only way you have the ability to think you are being successful doing so. In many cases it seems it turns back to bite in that it helps stear a kid down the same repetitive road.

[TimG]

Forcing a child into a car seat is for their safety.

Yet you want to make it illegal. Why?

[On Guard for Thee]

Yet you want to make it illegal. Why?

Are you really trying to suggest putting a child in a car seat and beating them are essentially similar ideas?

[TimG]

Are you really trying to suggest putting a child in a car seat and beating them are essentially similar ideas?

The law for adults does not distinguish. Both are assault and liable for prosecution. If you now agree that there reasons to use force against a child that do not apply to adult then say that. If you want to insist that they should be the same then admit that you want parents charged for forcing a screaming child into a car.

[Smallc]

Yet you want to make it illegal. Why?

Uhhh, we make adult people put on seat belts.

[On Guard for Thee]

The law for adults does not distinguish. Both are assault and liable for prosecution. If you now agree that there reasons to use force against a child that do not apply to adult then say that. If you want to insist that they should be the same then admit that you want parents charged for forcing a screaming child into a car.

The law for adults certainly does distinguish. Not putting your kid in a car seat is an offence where I live. Forcing them to do so is certainly not assault. Not sure what planet you are texting from.

[TimG]

The law for adults certainly does distinguish.

So you believe you could grab and adult and force them into a car against their will and you would face no legal repercussions? Note the assault is not putting the kid in a car seat. The assault is physically forcing a child into car against their will so the laws on car seat use are not a relevant concern. Edited December 26, 2015 by TimG

[On Guard for Thee]

SO you believe you could grab and adult and force them into a car against their will and you would face no legal repercussions? Note the assault is not putting the kid in a car seat. The assault is physically forcing a child into car against their will so the laws on car seat use are not a relevant concern.

The first part of your comment is rather ridiculous. After that, I wonder why you are getting hung up on this car seat thing. If your child is of car seat age and you need to take them somewhere, and you abide by the law of making them sit in a car seat, that is not assault. Putting them over your knee and hitting them with a belt could/should be.

[TimG]

The first part of your comment is rather ridiculous.

Not at all. I am simply illustrating why the standard for the use of force against a child is different that the standard for the use of force against an adult. The example I gave about forcing an adult into a car proves my point. I guess you refuse to address the point because you can't admit you are wrong to claim that the standard for using force against a child is the same as the standard for an adult. Edited December 26, 2015 by TimG

[TimG]

Uhhh, we make adult people put on seat belts.

But physically forcing an adult to wear one would be assault.

[Smallc]

But physically forcing an adult to wear one would be assault.

Sure, but then adults can put it on themselves, unlike most children of car seat age. Regardless, forcing people or children to do things for their own safety is not an argument for what can often amount to child abuse.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Smallc

[TimG]

Sure, but then adults can put it on themselves, unlike most children of car seat age. Forcing people or children to do things for their own safety is not an argument for what can often amount to child abuse.

You seem to missed the main point of my example. The main point was forcing a screaming child into a car against their will. The car seat was incidental and I should not have added because it clearly has been a distraction.

You can legitimately force a child into a car provided the type of force you use is "reasonable".

You cannot do that to an adult.

You cannot have the same laws for adults and children.

Edited December 26, 2015 by TimG