Is faith in ideology less blind, fanatical and dangerous than relgious

[Guest]

Beyond that, the quote reverses the order in which these modes of inquiry developed. Holy men came centuries before science.

Holy men certainly did come centuries before science, but the Brown quote is valid in that human knowledge has now pushed religion into either the gaps in understanding or the realm of institutionally/culturally enforced and sustained ignorance. When it comes to the question of origin, faith can provide the comfort that an honest "I don't know" just can't give and very few can tolerate the idea of non-existence at the end. I think the gaps and the willing suspension of reason, like an audience does to varying degrees at a magic show, are necessary for it's continued existence.

[TimG]

No, it's a myth that because a person isn't starving or has shelter that they aren't being screwed over.

"screwed over" is a subjective judgement that is based on perceptions rather than fact. A lot of privileged people think they are "screwed over" even though they have no objective basis for complaint. This makes it a meaningless criteria The question of having adequate food and shelter is an objective measure.

Also, I don't know much about Venezuela

http://www.wsj.com/articles/venezuelas-food-shortages-trigger-long-lines-hunger-and-looting-1440581400

In a national survey, the pollster Consultores 21 found 30% of Venezuelans eating two or fewer meals a day during the second quarter of this year, up from 20% in the first quarter. Around 70% of people in the study also said they had stopped buying some basic food item because it had become unavailable or too expensive.

Venezuela is a case study in why communism simply does not work.

What evidence is that?

Southern Europe vs Northern Europe - various petty regulations in Greece make it impossible to develop a business there. Employment laws in France have directly contributed to massive youth unemployment by making to risky for companies to take on young workers. Despite misconceptions here the Nordic countries are pro-free trade and low regulation countries.

I'm not going to say communism is anywhere near as good as capitalism, however, Cuba has done well and does better than most Latin American countries economically

It is still a stagnant back water that went through a crisis when it lost funding from the USSR. It is growing but only because of moves towards capitalism freed up entrepreneurs. Edited December 17, 2015 by TimG

[dialamah]

Neither is truth. Economic ideology usually all comes down to who you want to benefit and have more of the pie and who you don't.

Especially given we live in a democracy where the majority can change any policy, it's weird to me that most people make below 70-80k yet these same people support an economic system that has increasingly only really benefited a very small wealthy minority. The masses continue to work more hours with fewer benefits and little to no increase in income and rack up more debt. People usually act in their own selfish interests, yet have done virtually nothing about how they seem to be getting a bad deal. That's how brainwashed by the dogma they've become.

To be fair, even in this system, the majority can only vote for the options placed before them and hope for the best.

[kimmy]

Beyond that, the quote reverses the order in which these modes of inquiry developed. Holy men came centuries before science.

Well... I think it would be more accurate to say "observation" than science. As in, religion/mysticism/whatever was offered as an explanation for anything that observation couldn't explain. It's a notion that's so obvious as to be trite, at least when applied to primitive explanations for weather and things like that. But it's of little use in discussing current mainstream religions.

Modern day religion doesn't spend much time pondering where lightning comes from, but instead grapples with questions like "why does evil exist?" and "why do bad things happen to good people?" and "what is the point of all of this?" that science has nothing to say about.

-k

[eyeball]

Religion is often singled out as the primary cause for conflict and violence in the world today. But is this accusation justified?

No. While it's true religion makes things worse it's conservatism that makes religion most God-awful.

[eyeball]

I don't think so. Notwithstanding all the lies, they give people a choice which people make. People rarely vote for the independent candidate with the left field ideas. Maybe they're afraid they'll be the only one and they'll waste their vote. Maybe they are secretly afraid of left field (or right field) ideas. Maybe they see the rest of the world and settle back in relative comfort. I don't know. Real change comes infrequently.

Unfortunately when it does come it's usually violent.

[eyeball]

No it doesn't. It comes down to a question of who thinks economic decisions should be based on an understanding of economics and evidence instead of basing them on myths and wishful thinking.

That would include the belief we can grow indefinitely on a finite world.

[TimG]

That would include the belief we can grow indefinitely on a finite world.

Only if one assumes that growth requires an ever increasing consumption of material goods. Virtual goods (such as video games, movies, websites) are a growing part of the economy.

[kimmy]

Only if one assumes that growth requires an ever increasing consumption of material goods. Virtual goods (such as video games, movies, websites) are a growing part of the economy.

Virtual food, virtual energy, and virtual living-spaces have yet to arrive.

-k

[cybercoma]

Aside from kimmy's salient point, virtual goods still require massive amounts of power and resources to use.

Edited December 17, 2015 by cybercoma

[eyeball]

Virtual food, virtual energy, and virtual living-spaces have yet to arrive.

-k

Sounds like Heaven.

I honestly have to wonder about the commitment of religion to treating this world with an eye to it's long term sustainability given the often apocalyptic nature of most people's beliefs. The belief that God has prepared another apparently infinite world for us also takes the ethical pressure off to behave better towards this one. Whether you're dumping poison into a watershed or blowing yourself up in a crowd of people meh is the predominant moral impulse.

[TimG]

Virtual food, virtual energy, and virtual living-spaces have yet to arrive.

Except increasing these are not a requirement for economic growth. We could, in theory, have a growing economy based on virtual goods while the economy for the trade of physical goods declined. Energy is obviously required but the energy requirements to produce an distribute a $1 worth of virtual goods is a fraction of the cost of producing and distributing $1 worth of physical goods.

My point is phrase 'infinite growth - finite world' is trite to the point of meaninglessness because the limits of the world may finite at any given time with any given tech but those limits expand as new tech appears so it is not a forgone conclusion that we will ever reach those limits.

Edited December 17, 2015 by TimG

[eyeball]

Can we do all this with virtual money? I don't see why not - apparently it doesn't grow on trees which seems like another way of saying it's imaginary.

I don't use money...I have this little piece of plastic. Works like magic. I have faith in it.

Edited December 17, 2015 by eyeball

[kimmy]

Given the theoretically infinitely increasing supply of "virtual goods" and the finite supply of "real goods", doesn't it seem inevitable that the price of "virtual goods" will plummet while the price of "real goods" will skyrocket? Aren't people who depend on labor for their economic survival hooped regardless whether they're building "real goods" or "virtual goods"?

-k

[TimG]

Given the theoretically infinitely increasing supply of "virtual goods" and the finite supply of "real goods", doesn't it seem inevitable that the price of "virtual goods" will plummet while the price of "real goods" will skyrocket?

If the world is finite then this is inevitable. OTOH, as the virtual economy expands the share of the economy dedicated to producing real goods would decline as would the share of people who need to work in producing real goods. We already see this trend happening today. How many people are employed producing food in Canada today vs 100 years ago? Edited December 17, 2015 by TimG

[eyeball]

Where's Bonam? Maybe he could let us know how progress towards the Technological Singularity is coming along.

That's the sort of pie-in-the-sky thinking the world needs right now.

[eyeball]

If the world is finite then this is inevitable. OTOH, as the virtual economy expands the share of the economy dedicated to producing real goods would decline as would the share of people who need to work in producing real goods.

What about the moral imperative to produce and carry your own weight?

People who wouldn't need to work....bwahahahahaha!

Talk about pie-in-the-sky.

[TimG]

What about the moral imperative to produce and carry your own weight?

Do you think website content appears magically? It actually requires people to work producing it. The virtual economy comes with real jobs.

[kimmy]

"What will people do for jobs in the future?"

"They will produce Youtube videos and Android apps."

"Ok, who buys the Android apps and supports the sponsors of the Youtube videos? Where do those people get money?"

"They will also produce Youtube videos and Android apps."

The economy of the future is a hovercraft held aloft on a bubble of its own hot air.

-k

[Michael Hardner]

The economy of the future is a hovercraft held aloft on a bubble of its own hot air.

And in the past ?

Making cigarettes, Christmas tree ornaments, pet food.

[eyeball]

Do you think website content appears magically?

It does when I wave my magic piece of plastic at someone.

It actually requires people to work producing it. The virtual economy comes with real jobs.

Do you think those are 0's and 1's they're breathing?

[eyeball]

And in the past ?

Making cigarettes, Christmas tree ornaments, pet food.

That were made out of pieces of planet not 0's and 1's.

[Michael Hardner]

That were made out of pieces of planet not 0's and 1's.

Sounds pretty renewable to me.

[eyeball]

Sure if it's just cigarettes, Christmas tree ornaments and pet food but for bringing the entire planet up to the same standard of living enjoyed by us? That is presumably what our economy is supposed to be driving towards.

You figure we or the world can renew stuff fast enough to sustain that?

[Michael Hardner]

Sure if it's just cigarettes, Christmas tree ornaments and pet food but for bringing the entire planet up to the same standard of living enjoyed by us?

We had a lot of plastic garbage by the 1970s... the less of that stuff we have the better. What's better for your standard of living than unemploy.... er... I mean free time ?