Skeptical about Trudeau's commitment to climate change.

[Hydraboss]

Too many people?

Bingo. Only we're not allowed to say that....

Because - developing nations.

http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-20-countries-with-the-highest-population-growth.html

[G Huxley]

China is actually making far greater strides towards the development, and production of clean renewable energy than Canada.

[G Huxley]

I'm a little choked that our contribution is being made by Canadian taxpayers instead of Canadian corporations who have moved so much of our manufacturing base to developing nations to start with.

It's almost like they saw this coming.

Well put.

[TimG]

China is actually making far greater strides towards the development, and production of clean renewable energy than Canada.

ROTFL. China is building one coal-fired power plant every 7 to 10 days. No amount money pissed away on useless windmills will make up for that.

[-1=e^ipi]

Too many people?

Yet the pope, who is against birth control, is adored by the climate alarmists.

[eyeball]

Bingo. Only we're not allowed to say that....

Because - developing nations.

http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-20-countries-with-the-highest-population-growth.html

Developed nations are way more terrified of the economic implications of a shrinking population.

[Argus]

China is actually making far greater strides towards the development, and production of clean renewable energy than Canada.

No, China actually isn't. China is in the midst of an economic slowdown. Once that's over it's full steam ahead on building more coal fired power plants.

[waldo]

ROTFL. China is building one coal-fired power plant every 7 to 10 days. No amount money pissed away on useless windmills will make up for that.

No, China actually isn't. China is in the midst of an economic slowdown. Once that's over it's full steam ahead on building more coal fired power plants.

more Argus?... more? Care to, for once, actually back-up your ongoing unsubstantiated statements concerning China? Here, once again, ignore this same comment I replied to you with the last time you offered your "opinion":

you've made the same unsubstantiated statements/claims about new Chinese coal-plant builds in the past... and you simply choose to repeatedly ignore the countering replies. What you, apparently, purposely ignore is the Chinese emphasis on nuclear... or the Chinese emphasis on solar/wind. You also don't speak to the replacement aspect of Chinese coal plants... that a significant number of new coal plants are new higher efficient plants, many that are outright replacing the shuttering of older less efficient plants; notwithstanding the emphasis China is/has placed on sequestration towards commercially deployed coal-CCS plants. But more directly to that oft-repeated false talking point about the number of Chinese coal-plants going up (it's usually spoken in terms of "one or two (or more) new coal plants per week", there's a statistic that speaks to China adding a new wind-turbine every 20 seconds!

but once again, directly to your false talking point concerning the number of Chinese coal plants:

Let's start with the first bit of hot air to fill this bubble, the one I hear over and over again: Isn't China building a new coal plant (or two or three or four) every week? No they aren't. While it's true China has been on a spree over the past decade it turns out that the industry is now running on fumes (no pun intended). In 2011 a full one-third of coal plants approved in the country were stalled and investment in new coal plants weren't even half the level they were in 2005. Even better, China actually closed down over 80 GW of coal plants between 2001-2010 and is planning to phase out another 20 GW. To put that in perspective that's roughly the size of ALL electricity sources in Spain home to the world's 11th largest electricity sector. So next time someone tells you China is building a new plant every week, you can pleasantly respond: bullS*%@!

[TimG]

Let's start with the first bit of hot air to fill this bubble, the one I hear over and over again: Isn't China building a new coal plant (or two or three or four) every week? No they aren't.

Yes there are: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/world/asia/china-coal-power-energy-policy.html

Jiangsu Province has issued permits for 17 plants this year, while Shandong Province has issued permits for 16 — the second and third most plant approvals in the country, behind Shanxi Province.

Now the article also states that demand for electricity has slowed so many plants are running under capacity and some of the new plants may never get built that does not make the statement that 'china is building new coal plants every week' wrong. All it means is the chronic problems with over investment in China affect electricity generation as well. More importantly, these same problems make China's efforts on renewables at lot less interesting that the headline numbers suggest http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/20/china-wind-power-business-energy-china.html

While the rapid growth in China’s wind power capacity looks impressive on paper, it is less so in reality. China’s total electricity production capacity reached 792.4 gW at the end of 2008; the 12 gW of wind capacity accounted for about 1.5% of that. However, in terms of actual power production, wind turbines generated 13 million megawatt-hours of electricity last year, only about 0.4% of China’s total energy supply, based on Citigroup data.

A considerable proportion of China’s wind plants are unproductive. According to Morgan Stanley research, about 3.5 gW of installed wind capacity in China may be lying idle, or 29%. Citigroup also estimated about 30% of wind power capacity in 2008 was not connected to the electrical grid.

The take away is China is not an example any sane country wants to emulate. Of course, sanity is not a priority for Justin 'photo-op' Trudeau.

Edited December 15, 2015 by TimG

[G Huxley]

China actually just burned less coal than the previous year a first time that's ever happened.

Edited December 15, 2015 by G Huxley

[Keepitsimple]

China actually just burned less coal than the previous year a first time that's ever happened.

Will you change your thinking on China after reading this? I'm not holding my breath:

BEIJING — China, the world’s leading emitter of greenhouse gases from coal, has been burning up to 17 percent more coal a year than the government previously disclosed, according to newly released data. The finding could complicate the already difficult efforts to limit global warming.

Even for a country of China’s size, the scale of the correction is immense. The sharp upward revision in official figures means that China has released much more carbon dioxide — almost a billion more tons a year according to initial calculations — than previously estimated.

The increase alone is greater than the whole German economy emits annually from fossil fuels.

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/04/world/asia/china-burns-much-more-coal-than-reported-complicating-climate-talks.html?_r=0

[Michael Hardner]

General question - I don't seem to hear as much about coal exports as I do about the tarsands, when it comes to climate change. Are those two aspects of Canada's fossil fuel exports similar, in terms of CO2 additions ?

[Argus]

Will you change your thinking on China after reading this? I'm not holding my breath:

I'm shocked, shocked, that a reputable country like China, where truth is valued above life itself, would lie about something important!

Shocked!

[waldo]

Yes there are:

nothing sweeter than reading your own words (below) punt your own words (above)! Here's a clue for you... permits don't equate to anything; they're not a qualifier on actual intent, on actual construction, on actual deployment. GreenBashers, like you, typically trot out those 2 Chinese provinces and highlight the recent deployments... but never speak to the fact those deployments reflect upon approvals/construction "in the pipeline" for, in some cases, over a decade... today's China is not the China of a decade ago. Coal is aggressively being shifted away from in favour of renewables, gas and designs on nuclear.

Now the article also states that demand for electricity has slowed so many plants are running under capacity and some of the new plants may never get built that does not make the statement that 'china is building new coal plants every week' wrong.

.

.

More importantly, these same problems make China's efforts on renewables at lot less interesting that the headline numbers suggest.

The take away is China is not an example any sane country wants to emulate. Of course, sanity is not a priority for Justin 'photo-op' Trudeau.

China Is Absolutely Destroying the US on Clean Energy

Opponents to President Barack Obama's climate agenda, such as GOP presidential contender Marco Rubio, like to argue that anything the United States does to curb greenhouse gas emissions will be pointless because countries like India and China aren't doing the same. [waldo: hey now! That's just what MLW member 'Argus' keeps saying, ad nauseum, about Canada versus China/India]

But new data from Bloomberg New Energy Finance shows that this argument is just hot air: For the first time ever, over the last year the majority of global investment in clean energy projects was spent in developing countries. In fact, clean energy investment in China alone outpaced that in the United States, the United Kingdom, and France combined, BNEF found.

.

Edited December 15, 2015 by waldo

[waldo]

Will you change your thinking on China after reading this? I'm not holding my breath:

assessments based on census related statistics??? What the hell... did they get 'long-form census' direction from Harper Conservatives?

no worries Simple... direct air measurements aren't the same as indirect fuel consumption stats/estimates. I put forward a past MLW post that spoke to technical emission verification facets tied to treaty obligations along with independent monitoring/tracking that can't be "fudged".

[-1=e^ipi]

General question - I don't seem to hear as much about coal exports as I do about the tarsands, when it comes to climate change. Are those two aspects of Canada's fossil fuel exports similar, in terms of CO2 additions ?

Coal emits more CO2 per kWh than Oil, even oil sands.

[Big Guy]

Had a long and interesting discussion about the tar sands with an engineer in the energy business. He suggests that the answer to the "dirty" oil is the use of small nuclear reactors to create the heated steam required for extracting the oil.

I do not have a background in nuclear reactors and was surprised to learn how flexible the size can be:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/nuclear-fuel-cycle/power-reactors/small-nuclear-power-reactors/

Is this the answer to hitting emission targets in the future?

[TimG]

Is this the answer to hitting emission targets in the future?

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/01/18/toshiba-oil-sands-reactor_n_2505738.html Edited December 15, 2015 by TimG

[Big Guy]

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/01/18/toshiba-oil-sands-reactor_n_2505738.html

Thank you for the link. I was unaware of the technology already being seriously considered.

[G Huxley]

General question - I don't seem to hear as much about coal exports as I do about the tarsands, when it comes to climate change. Are those two aspects of Canada's fossil fuel exports similar, in terms of CO2 additions ?

Good point. Alot of complaining about China burning coal and none about Canada exporting coal to China!

[Guest]

Good point. Alot of complaining about China burning coal and none about Canada exporting coal to China!

If we stopped would they just start using all those windmills and solar panels they have idling, or would they get it from somewhere else and keep burning it.

[Argus]

Good point. Alot of complaining about China burning coal and none about Canada exporting coal to China!

I've asked this before. If we are responsible for China's CO2 emissions when they burn our coal or oil, does that mean someone else is responsible when we burn imported oil?

[Wilber]

I've asked this before. If we are responsible for China's CO2 emissions when they burn our coal or oil, does that mean someone else is responsible when we burn imported oil?

Naw, that's different.

[eyeball]

I complained decades ago about truckin' and tradin' with dictators that have no respect for human rights or environmental sustainability.

I was usually labelled as whacked out commie when I did.

But that's different.

[G Huxley]

"I've asked this before. If we are responsible for China's CO2 emissions when they burn our coal or oil, does that mean someone else is responsible when we burn imported oil?"

Both parties are responsible in all instances.

If there's one thing the right can't stand it's responsibility and courage to do the right thing.

Edited December 16, 2015 by G Huxley