Northern Gateway Pipeline Canned by Trudeau

[The_Squid]

Jacee, how many of these climate deals have we seen in the last 15 yrs. And how many had any result in lowering emissions. It is one big party for these people. And even bigger since trudeau took more people with him then any other country did. And how much emissions were produced with 50,000 people flying over to Paris to party.

Please provide a cite that Canada sent more delegates "than any other country".

I know you won't, because that is simply not true. It's your typical PIK post where you pull some outrageous claim out of thin air (or from somewhere else).

Edited January 11, 2016 by The_Squid

[hitops]

This 'deal' is non-binding and won't do anything, just like all the previous ones. Any government can just not meet it, then come up with some excuse for why. The concern is that in the process of doing nothing, what costs will be imposed on us? This remains to be seen.

Edited January 11, 2016 by hitops

[On Guard for Thee]

This 'deal' is non-binding and won't do anything, just like all the previous ones. Any government can just not meet it, then come up with some excuse for why. The concern is that in the process of doing nothing, what costs will be imposed on us? This remains to be seen.

There are legally binding requirements for country's to monitor and report on their progress, or lack thereof, sort of a name and shame concept for the laggards. The hybrid system was established to avoid having to seek ratification at the US senate because the republicans who control it don't want to believe there is anything to worry about and would have nixed anything meaningful.

[hitops]

There are legally binding requirements for country's to monitor and report on their progress, or lack thereof, sort of a name and shame concept for the laggards. The hybrid system was established to avoid having to seek ratification at the US senate because the republicans who control it don't want to believe there is anything to worry about and would have nixed anything meaningful.

I can't imaging how that could ever be enforced for countries who simply want to lie about it.

Edited January 11, 2016 by hitops

[On Guard for Thee]

I can't imaging how that could ever be enforced for countries who simply want to lie about it.

Well you have to start somewhere don't ya. At least we now have an agreement involving 195 countries that there is a problem with GW.

[hitops]

Well you have to start somewhere don't ya. At least we now have an agreement involving 195 countries that there is a problem with GW.

Or maybe you don't. One of the most ironic facts, is that the western country most resistant to a climate deal historically, the US, is one of the only countries now in compliance with kyoto, which they never ratified. And the reason is completely due to rampant old fashioned market-driven capitalist innovation, ie fracking. It is also killing coal, without the need for coal regulations.

Edited January 11, 2016 by hitops

[On Guard for Thee]

Or maybe you don't. One of the most ironic facts, is that the western country most resistant to a climate deal historically, the US, is one of the only countries now in compliance with kyoto, which they never ratified. And the reason is completely due to rampant old fashioned market-driven capitalist innovation, ie fracking. It is also killing coal, without the need for coal regulations.

Capitalist innovation follows the almighty dollar and nothing else. Looks like fossils aren't where the dollars are anymore. Whatever it takes to kill coal is fine with me, and probably a lot of Chinese as well

[PIK]

Please provide a cite that Canada sent more delegates "than any other country".

I know you won't, because that is simply not true. It's your typical PIK post where you pull some outrageous claim out of thin air (or from somewhere else).

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/the-price-of-paris-canada-sends-more-than-300-delegates-to-climate-talks-1.2686239

If you going to play on these boards ,at least pay attention to what is going on around you. If I say something it happened.Thanks.

Canada has one of the largest teams at the Paris climate change conference, with more than 300 politicians, government staff and bureaucrats in attendance.

That’s more than double the U.S. team, which includes fewer than 150 officials, and about triple the U.K.’s team of about 100 attendees, according to United Nations figures.

Edited January 11, 2016 by PIK

[hitops]

Capitalist innovation follows the almighty dollar and nothing else. Looks like fossils aren't where the dollars are anymore. Whatever it takes to kill coal is fine with me, and probably a lot of Chinese as well

What happened is that the almighty dollar moved away from one kind of fossil to another, one that happens to be cleaner burning and cheap.

And now this technology is available to other countries who want to get away from coal. Available only because of the big ugly capitalists and for no other reason.

[The_Squid]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/the-price-of-paris-canada-sends-more-than-300-delegates-to-climate-talks-1.2686239

If you going to play on these boards ,at least pay attention to what is going on around you. If I say something it happened.Thanks.

"one of the largest teams". That doesn't back up your claim.

Please provide a cite for your claim that Canada sent the most delegates of any country. Your claim wasn't "Canada was in the top 10 for numbers of delegates"... it was "Canada sent more delegates than any other country".

Are you changing the goalposts now?

[On Guard for Thee]

What happened is that the almighty dollar moved away from one kind of fossil to another, one that happens to be cleaner burning and cheap.

And now this technology is available to other countries who want to get away from coal. Available only because of the big ugly capitalists and for no other reason.

And as renewable's continue to expand, the almighty dollar will follow, and hopefully before we hit the tipping point and Miami, for example, disappears under the sea.

[hitops]

And as renewable's continue to expand, the almighty dollar will follow, and hopefully before we hit the tipping point and Miami, for example, disappears under the sea.

Well if sea level rise continues in the way it has, that won't be for a couple of hundred years. At this pace we will easily and gradually adapt to changing coastlines, if at all.

I fully agree let the dollar go to the best ROI on energy. Unfortunately, right now the ROI for renewables is zero or negative in most cases, in the absence of your and my taxpayer dollar propping it up. If we remove subsides from fossil, gas will cost a few cents more. If we remove them from renewable, 90% of current renewable will disappear (exception for hydro).

Edited January 11, 2016 by hitops

[overthere]

And now KInder Morgan looks to be dead too, or at least delayed for a very long time: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/british-columbia-to-oppose-kinder-morgans-pipeline-expansion-report/article28106524/

This will be an interesting test for Trudeau, what with cascading bad economic news, and here we have a rare corporation willing to invest in very urgently needed infrastructure. For those unfamiliar with Kinder Morgan, this is a proposal to expand an existing pipeline from Alberta to Vancouver, on a route that has been in continuous use for 60+ years.

[TimG]

And now KInder Morgan looks to be dead too, or at least delayed for a very long time:

I suspect Kinder Morgan was not that interested in the project given the way oil went since it refused provide basic information about spill response procedures.

[overthere]

Well, that is their story anyway. I cannot imagine that any company could provide enough information to satisfy anybody in BC.

And I disagree, Kinder Morgan has spent a boatload of money already on this expansion. They doubled capacity 15 years ago on this same route, and had to jump through many hoops particularly in Jasper National Park. KM is in the business of moving oil, and there is even now no lack at all of customers to supply product.

That leaves Canada with no options at all to the West Coast, nothing new to the Gulf, and Energy East floundering with the opposition of Wynne and Coulliard. I think Canada may be the only developed country in the world incapable of looking after themselves, with politicians and an alarming chunk of the populace unable to comprehend what butters their own bread.

I expect Trudeau to do SFA, His grasp of the value of petro export to our national economy is close to nil. Or more accurately, his understanding of the economy.

Edited January 11, 2016 by overthere

[On Guard for Thee]

I guess if you want to nearly triple the amount of pipeline capacity you should have some idea/plan of how you might contain it if/when there is a spill.

[The_Squid]

I guess if you want to nearly triple the amount of pipeline capacity you should have some idea/plan of how you might contain it if/when there is a spill.

That should be standard practice. Unfortunately, governments didn't used to ask those types of difficult questions.

If you can't get this corporation-friendly BC government onboard with your pipeline expansion, imagine a government that takes environmental concerns seriously!

This company didn't come close to meeting the oil spill response plans. No expansion for you K-M!

[overthere]

What a load of baloney.

It is clear that there is absolutely nothing that any company could say or do that would satisfy the Suzukis here or in BC. At least have the honesty to acknowledge that.

Despite 60 years......

[The_Squid]

Suzuki? ummm.... take off your tinfoil hat... if you think the Provincial gov't is in Suzuki's pocket? Wow...

[ReeferMadness]

Well if sea level rise continues in the way it has, that won't be for a couple of hundred years. At this pace we will easily and gradually adapt to changing coastlines, if at all.

Actually, Miami Beach already has flooding problems during high tides.

We got back into the car. Driving with one hand, Wanless shot pictures out the window with the other. “Look at that,” he said. “Oh, my gosh!” We’d come to a neighborhood of multimillion-dollar homes where the water was creeping under the security gates and up the driveways. Porsches and Mercedeses sat flooded up to their chassis.

But if you're blissfully unaware of it, don't worry. Many of the residents are equally in the dark.

We were standing in front of a low-slung apartment building, debating what to do next, when one of the residents came by. “I’ve been trying to figure out: Where is the water coming from?” he said. “It’ll be drying up and then it’ll be just like this again.” He had complained to the building’s superintendent.

As if the superintendent can control sea level rise.

Florida is not so much in a state of denial as it is a state in denial.

“When the governor of the state is a full-out climate denier, the irony is just excruciatingly painful,” Gore observed. He said that he thought Florida ought to “join with the Maldives and some of the small island states that are urging the world to adopt stronger restrictions on global-warming pollution.”

How bad will it get?

According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, sea levels could rise by more than three feet by the end of this century. The United States Army Corps of Engineers projects that they could rise by as much as five feet; the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration predicts up to six and a half feet. According to Wanless, all these projections are probably low.

Just to put that in perspective, here's a website that will allow you to see what 1-6 feet of sea level rise will do to South Florida. On average, Miami Dade County is only about 6 feet above sea level. At one foot, a significant chunk of the Florida everglades is gone. At 3 feet, the eastern portion of Miami Beach disappears. At 6 feet, much of South Florida will be under water.

Can Miami be saved? Not with today's engineering.

But the geology of South Florida is peculiarly intractable. Building a dike on porous limestone is like putting a fence on top of a tunnel: it alters the route of travel, but not necessarily the amount.

Yet, even as people claim it would cost too much to stop using fossil fuels, Bruce Mowry, Miami Beach's city engineer dreams up pie-in-the-sky solutions.

Mowry said he was intrigued by the possibility of finding some kind of resin that could be injected into the limestone. The resin would fill the holes, then set to form a seal. Or, he suggested, perhaps one day the city would require that builders, before constructing a house, lay a waterproof shield underneath it, the way a camper spreads a tarp under a tent. Or maybe some sort of clay could be pumped into the ground that would ooze out and fill the interstices.

This is madness. Lunacy. Straight out of Monty Python.

I fully agree let the dollar go to the best ROI on energy.

The only way that fossil fuels have ANY ROI at all is when most of the costs are externalized like health care or kicked down the road, like climate change.

If I were a religious man, I'd say God forgive us for what we are doing to our grandchildren. I'd like to say we're too stupid to know better but it's worse than that. We're too selfish to do anything about it.

Edited January 11, 2016 by ReeferMadness

[ReeferMadness]

And now KInder Morgan looks to be dead too, or at least delayed for a very long time: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/british-columbia-to-oppose-kinder-morgans-pipeline-expansion-report/article28106524/

This will be an interesting test for Trudeau, what with cascading bad economic news, and here we have a rare corporation willing to invest in very urgently needed infrastructure. For those unfamiliar with Kinder Morgan, this is a proposal to expand an existing pipeline from Alberta to Vancouver, on a route that has been in continuous use for 60+ years.

Yup. It was built at a time when nobody thought that pipelines would spill massive amounts of oil, when nobody knew just how toxic the sludge was, before there was any such thing as dilbit. There's no reason for other provinces to accept the risk of toxic sludge being spilled into their environment.

At today's price points, you can barely give away tar sands oil.

[bush_cheney2004]

The median sea level trend for Miami beach, Florida is currently 2.39 millimeters per year. Very consistent going back to the beginning of measurements before 1940.

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends_station.shtml?stnid=8723170

Has nothing to do with Canada's inability to build east-west pipelines, but it is a fun diversion.

[TimG]

Actually, Miami Beach already has flooding problems during high tides.

Whatever problems Miami has it has nothing to do with climate change because SLR over the last 50 years has been < 10cm. This is a common fraud used by climate alarmists: take any problem and claim connection with climate change even if there is no data to support such a claim.

that will allow you to see what 1-6 feet of sea level rise will do to South Florida.

We might see 3ft by 2100 which gives Florida more than enough time to build whatever shoreline defenses it needs. It makes more economic sense for the US federal government to fund such projects than it does to force people to pay more for energy that cannot provide the reliability that people demand.

BTW: Climate change will reduce the number of hurricane that hit Florida so the people living there could be better off once everything is factored in.

Edited January 11, 2016 by TimG

[ReeferMadness]

The median sea level trend for Miami beach, Florida is currently 2.39 millimeters per year. Very consistent going back to the beginning of measurements before 1940.

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends_station.shtml?stnid=8723170

Has nothing to do with Canada's inability to build east-west pipelines, but it is a fun diversion.

Oh, yeah. Cuz the data goes all the way to 1981! :rolleyes:

[eyeball]

Because people say it, does not make it true. It is still far more expensive to produce power with non-fossil sources, which is why the vast majority of the world's energy is still produced with fossil fuels.

If there's no profit in producing fossil fuels for generating power then why bother producing it?

Maybe that'll motivate the market to shift as fast than anything.