Russian plane crash over Egypt

[Rue]

Certainly the airline and Russian airlines in general have very poor records.As some mentioned this particular aircraft had body integrity issues. derek and wilbur excellently summarized possible theories.

One story out now is a man on the ground was taking bribes to take luggage directly to the plane. the security at Sharm was lax. You could get any bag through. This was not Tel Aviv airport. In Egypt security is lax. bribes are rampant.So bc's speculation of a luggage bomb going off by detonator at a certain height seems possible too.

i just wonder, was it coincidence the pilot was having problems before the actual explosiion? They said they found shrapnel. what does that mean. what kind of shrapnel because if it was a bomb the shrapnel is the damning evidence.

if the technical problems being convetyed by the pilot before the explosion were not coincidence that leads to the fuel line guess, or even a body integrity issue-i would like to know from derek/wilbur, is it possible there was simply a body integrity issue and it simply broke apart from a bad seam? is that possible given the previous tail issue or is that unlikely?

Edited November 6, 2015 by Rue

[Topaz]

If it was a bomb, yeah, it could have been ISIS but it also could have been someone else and blame ISIS also, we will never know for sure.

[Wilber]

If it was a bomb, yeah, it could have been ISIS but it also could have been someone else and blame ISIS also, we will never know for sure.

Why so quick to defend ISIS, they want you to believe it was them. They said right away it was them so why would anyone think they are being unjustly accused?

[Guest]

It could have.......I know most modern airports have barometric triggering systems that passenger luggage goes through prior to entering the aircraft, but that's not to say ISIS didn't have a plant in the airport staff with a workaround.

Seems a bit dodgy for people at the airport...

I think if a bomb got on this plane, the person putting it on was employed at the airport in one capacity or another. Baggage handling most likely, but maybe cleaning or catering, even.

[Wilber]

As I said in my first post, it depends on whether you think the ISIS video is authentic. There are three simple questions I need answered before getting into other scenarios.

1. Is the video real or faked? You would think videographers and CGI experts would be able to figure that out.

2. If it is real, is that the Russian aircraft? A321's getting blown out of the sky are hardly common occurrences so it is unlikely two would get mixed up.

3. Why would ISIS be filming what was just another aircraft leaving Sharm el Sheikh heading north, if they weren't expecting something to happen?

Simple questions that haven't been answered yet.

[Rue]

Wilber is it possible for a plane to literally fall apart from integrity damage or in this case does the wreckage indicate fire from other than just it splitting apart? Can they tell that? I know they can tell a lot from what they find at the scene. Is there something particular they find that could differentiate say a leak of fuel or an engine blow out from simply a plane coming apart or a bomb? Anyone know?

[Wilber]

The tail came off the aircraft in the air. They will likely find out why but these investigations take time. It is extremely rare for an aircraft in good serviceable condition to break up in the air. The only one I can think of offhand is BOAC 911

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOAC_Flight_911

[On Guard for Thee]

Well first, if static pressure drops off in the fuel system, in any fuel injected internal combustion engine, there is a leak somewhere in the fuel system.....

Second, the APU on the Airbus A320, draws fuel from the left/port fuel manifold, using the tank pump pressure to feed it in normal use, well having it's own specific pump for in-flight emergencies..........so you are wrong on both counts.

--------

Your obvious errors aside, I'll await the official investigation results.

Sorry, but the reason the pump is there is to maintain the pressure. Pump off....pressure gone. Doesn't mean fuel starvation necessarily as certain systems have their own engine driven pump which may provide enough suction to keep things going. But if the apu in this case is switched off, and the pump is also off, there is no pressure.

[Wilber]

It's normal for the APU to be supplied by one of the boost pumps in the fuel tanks when AC power is available. On all the aircraft I know, the APU pump is a DC pump that can be run off a battery so the APU can be started with no other power available. Whether the whole line from the tank is pressurized in flight would depend on the location of the shutoff valve.

[-TSS-]

They wouldnt tell us it was a bomb unless they had soundproof evidence which they havent released yet because of security reasons.

They? The UK-government of course. There can possibly be no other more trustworthy or immune to lies an organisation than the UK-government. Just think of their integrity and honesty in 2003.

[overthere]

I cannot imagine why the Russians have not yet blamed the Ukrainians yet.

[Wilber]

I cannot imagine why the Russians have not yet blamed the Ukrainians yet.

ISIS claimed responsibility. Remember?

[Wilber]

They wouldnt tell us it was a bomb unless they had soundproof evidence which they havent released yet because of security reasons.

They? The UK-government of course. There can possibly be no other more trustworthy or immune to lies an organisation than the UK-government. Just think of their integrity and honesty in 2003.

Let's see, ISIS is lying, the Russians are lying, the Brits and Americans are lying. Everyone is lying. Maybe the crash is a lie as well.

[overthere]

ISIS claimed responsibility. Remember?

That wouldn't make any difference at all to the Russians. Don't get all hung up on facts and the truth here. Scapegoats are required and the Ukrainiians are perfect in that role, it would play well in The Motherland.

Trudeau could challenge Putin to a fistfight over it.

[GostHacked]

Wilber is it possible for a plane to literally fall apart from integrity damage or in this case does the wreckage indicate fire from other than just it splitting apart? Can they tell that? I know they can tell a lot from what they find at the scene. Is there something particular they find that could differentiate say a leak of fuel or an engine blow out from simply a plane coming apart or a bomb? Anyone know?

Explosives do different things to the fuselage compared to long use and fatigue or mechanical failure. Chemical analysis, microscopic metal/composite analysis should tell them if anything was used.

It seems to be quite rare for a plane to break up in flight. Typically with mechanical failure the plane drops out of the sky and smacks the ground.

[GostHacked]

Let's see, ISIS is lying, the Russians are lying, the Brits and Americans are lying. Everyone is lying. Maybe the crash is a lie as well.

That could very well be the case. Much of what we hear these days are lies, from both sides.

[Wilber]

That could very well be the case. Much of what we hear these days are lies, from both sides.

That would take a multi national conspiracy between several countries, some of which don't get along and agree on almost nothing.

[bush_cheney2004]

That would take a multi national conspiracy between several countries, some of which don't get along and agree on almost nothing.

Agreed, but common sense never stopped the birth of another wild ass conspiracy theory.

[Topaz]

For one thing, the US said 9/11 was done by one man Bin laden and today there are many questions if that was true and reports did say Bin Laden said he didn't do it, then we have reports saying he did say. I've read were the US supported the rebels that fought against Syria only to be now the rebels fighting with ISIS. I'm not saying ISIS didn't do it I'm saying I'm have my doubts with ALL parties fighting in the ME, they ALL have their own agenda.

[Derek 2.0]

Sorry, but the reason the pump is there is to maintain the pressure. Pump off....pressure gone. Doesn't mean fuel starvation necessarily as certain systems have their own engine driven pump which may provide enough suction to keep things going. But if the apu in this case is switched off, and the pump is also off, there is no pressure.

Ahh no, the reason there is a pump is to maintain flow, no pump, no flow from the outer tanks.......when said pump is off, the static pressure remains the same. If it drops, there is a leak somewhere in the system. Seriously, this is grade school level science, if fluid mechanics worked as you suggest, nobody could siphon fuel from a gas tank with a hose, coffee makers wouldn't work, nor would drinking straws............or, in an emergency (as described in the Airbus material I cited) the center fuel tank wouldn't feed the engines, absent pumps, from the natural siphon created by the flow of a liquid through the fuel system...

And no, yet again, you are taking out of your ass..........the mechanical drawings of an Airbus A320 fuel system:

As is clearly shown, the fuel line to the APU is always pressurized to the same degree as the rest of the fuel system, and (as mentioned in the prior source) has an emergency pump at the APU to ensure there will be flow to the APU if there is no tank pump pressure....

[Derek 2.0]

Seems a bit dodgy for people at the airport...

I think if a bomb got on this plane, the person putting it on was employed at the airport in one capacity or another. Baggage handling most likely, but maybe cleaning or catering, even.

Its a law of averages type thing.........you're bound to get a rotten apple or two in any bunch.

[Derek 2.0]

3. Why would ISIS be filming what was just another aircraft leaving Sharm el Sheikh heading north, if they weren't expecting something to happen?

Simple questions that haven't been answered yet.

I haven't heard that one, do you have a source for that? That could be a game changer for sure....

[Bonam]

Ahh no, the reason there is a pump is to maintain flow, no pump, no flow from the outer tanks.......when said pump is off, the static pressure remains the same. If it drops, there is a leak somewhere in the system. Seriously, this is grade school level science...

Science is not the strong suit of most MLW posters, to put things mildly.

[Wilber]

I haven't heard that one, do you have a source for that? That could be a game changer for sure....

You haven't seen the video ISIS posted?

[Derek 2.0]

You haven't seen the video ISIS posted?

No, I heard they released a statement praising Allah for bringing down the airliner, didn't know there was a video. I'll Google it, thanks.