Harper's Rare Misstep on the TPP

[ToadBrother]

Yeah. Cow milkers, who probably make something close to minimum wage and likely don't have a wealth of marketable skills, will qualify for a few months of employment insurance payments. Partayyy!!!

Whereas, the business owners, who are much more likely to have assets and wealth, don't.

You're entitled to your opinion that the business owners deserve help but the workers don't. I wonder what the Canadian public would think.

Even if this were true (so far as I understand, most milk farms are heavily automated, and there's not a lot of milk maids left in this part of the world), what of it? Yes, it's too bad a rather small group of people may be put out of work, but that happens all the time, international trade deals or otherwise. As harsh as it sounds, everything in this world is based on cost-benefit analyses, and with the TPP, the benefits outweigh the negatives.

[ToadBrother]

Then why compensate anyone?

It happens sometimes if it is viewed to be a significant economic harm. It doesn't always happen of course, as some will tell you about NAFTA.

[eyeball]

Why should the dairy cabal get a bailout following years of gouging the market with their over priced protected products? Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me.

[ReeferMadness]

Even if this were true (so far as I understand, most milk farms are heavily automated, and there's not a lot of milk maids left in this part of the world), what of it? Yes, it's too bad a rather small group of people may be put out of work, but that happens all the time, international trade deals or otherwise.

So, again, why compensate anyone? You and and Michael clearly don't give 2 craps about the poor people who could easily find themselves on the street. Why is it OK to compensate the business owners?

As harsh as it sounds, everything in this world is based on cost-benefit analyses, and with the TPP, the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Huh. And where exactly is that cost benefit analysis? Maybe Harper gave it to you because I haven't seen it.

[Michael Hardner]

So, again, why compensate anyone? You and and Michael clearly don't give 2 craps about the poor people who could easily find themselves on the street.

If we feel that there will be more jobs because of the TPP then we do care about them.

[ToadBrother]

So, again, why compensate anyone? You and and Michael clearly don't give 2 craps about the poor people who could easily find themselves on the street. Why is it OK to compensate the business owners?

Huh. And where exactly is that cost benefit analysis? Maybe Harper gave it to you because I haven't seen it.

Stop putting words in my mouth. It's not a matter of whether we care or not, it's a matter of what can be done.

If we are left out of the TPP, we will be put at significant disadvantage. The deal brings few advantages, but being outside the deal could have serious disadvantages. As well, the TPP is probably a model for future trade agreements, particularly a potential trade agreement encompassing North America and the EU.

What is your solution? Never sign trade deals? Only sign trade deals that don't lead to layoffs?

[ReeferMadness]

It happens sometimes if it is viewed to be a significant economic harm. It doesn't always happen of course, as some will tell you about NAFTA.

You mean how Ethyl Corp (the good folks who figured out how to put lead in gasoline) got $20 million because we wouldn't let them use the MMT additive (which was banned in California)?

Or how about Bilcon, who is currently suing us for $300 million because the environmental assessment thought it wasn't a great idea to build a quarry in the Bay of Fundy?

Do you guys even know about the investor state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanisms that were in NAFTA and are now in the TPP? They supersede the courts and give the decision to a tribunal of private sector trade lawyers. The process is conducted in private and there is no appeal.

NAFTA chapter 11 has made Canada the most sued country in the world.

But hey. The important thing is that we don't worry about people who milk cows for a living. They need to sink or swim.

[ToadBrother]

You mean how Ethyl Corp (the good folks who figured out how to put lead in gasoline) got $20 million because we wouldn't let them use the MMT additive (which was banned in California)?

Or how about Bilcon, who is currently suing us for $300 million because the environmental assessment thought it wasn't a great idea to build a quarry in the Bay of Fundy?

Do you guys even know about the investor state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanisms that were in NAFTA and are now in the TPP? They supersede the courts and give the decision to a tribunal of private sector trade lawyers. The process is conducted in private and there is no appeal.

NAFTA chapter 11 has made Canada the most sued country in the world.

But hey. The important thing is that we don't worry about people who milk cows for a living. They need to sink or swim.

There have been a few NAFTA rulings over the years, and one or two that Canada won. What's your problem exactly?

[ReeferMadness]

If we feel that there will be more jobs because of the TPP then we do care about them.

And who feels that? Even better, where is the analysis of that?

I've heard lots of feel good statements from all kinds of people but no real information from anyone.

[cybercoma]

No - the workers already have social infrastructure in place to deal with displacement.

Like the EI system that Harper has made far more difficult to navigate?

[ReeferMadness]

There have been a few NAFTA rulings over the years, and one or two that Canada won. What's your problem exactly?

I don't make car parts or milk cows so I guess I don't have a problem. Is that your point? Maybe I should be like the rest you and shrug my shoulders and say, "Hey guys. Sux that ex-bosses got big payouts and you got nothing. But hurry down to the food bank - they might still have something!".

Maybe it shouldn't bother me that governments are off in secret, negotiating an agreement that give foreign corporations more rights than Canadian citizens. Maybe I should like it that corporations were involved in the talks even as labour groups, environmental groups and the rest of us were kept in the dark.

Or maybe... you guys should wake up and give a shit about what's going on in the world

[ToadBrother]

I don't make car parts or milk cows so I guess I don't have a problem. Is that your point? Maybe I should be like the rest you and shrug my shoulders and say, "Hey guys. Sux that ex-bosses got big payouts and you got nothing. But hurry down to the food bank - they might still have something!".

Maybe it shouldn't bother me that governments are off in secret, negotiating an agreement that give foreign corporations more rights than Canadian citizens. Maybe I should like it that corporations were involved in the talks even as labour groups, environmental groups and the rest of us were kept in the dark.

Or maybe... you guys should wake up and give a shit about what's going on in the world

Are you intentionally trying to miss the point? Every economic policy, whether it's a trade deal or some domestic plan, is going to have winners and losers. You weigh the pros and cons, and if the pros outweigh the cons, and the cons can be dealt with, then it's a reasonably sound policy.

You can't save every job, no matter what, whether you make trade deals or not. This is the source of my frustration with your objections, because it almost seems like you think that jobs in certain industries should be preserved no matter what.

All the Provinces have retraining programs paid for out of the Federal Employment Insurance Fund. If there are dislocated workers, one presumes they will, if they cannot find employment elsewhere, end up on EI, in which case it's very likely that they will be eligible for retraining, particular as the industry they are working in will be changing/down-sizing. That seems like a reasonable accommodation to me, assuring that low-skilled workers can potentially even find better and more sustainable employment.

[ReeferMadness]

Are you intentionally trying to miss the point? Every economic policy, whether it's a trade deal or some domestic plan, is going to have winners and losers. You weigh the pros and cons, and if the pros outweigh the cons, and the cons can be dealt with, then it's a reasonably sound policy.

What pros? What cons? I've seen almost no usable information on this deal but Harper and right wing economists are in overdrive assuring me that it's wonderful. Excuse me if I'd like to make up my own mind.

You can't save every job, no matter what, whether you make trade deals or not. This is the source of my frustration with your objections, because it almost seems like you think that jobs in certain industries should be preserved no matter what.

No, I think the people should be preserved no matter what. Have you noticed that nobody in this election is even talking about the record numbers of homeless people and people living in poverty in this country? Everyone is talking about the middle class, whatever that is.

And you're skirting the issues. Why are we compensating corporations when it's the individuals that will be worst hit? And why are we giving foreign Corporations rights that Canadian citizens don't have? And why are corporate interests included in the negotiations but nobody else?

All the Provinces have retraining programs paid for out of the Federal Employment Insurance Fund. If there are dislocated workers, one presumes they will, if they cannot find employment elsewhere, end up on EI, in which case it's very likely that they will be eligible for retraining, particular as the industry they are working in will be changing/down-sizing. That seems like a reasonable accommodation to me, assuring that low-skilled workers can potentially even find better and more sustainable employment.

Really?

I'll just run down to the food bank and tell everyone in line that they can go get these mysterious retraining programs, whatever they are. They'll be driving Porsches in no time.

[ToadBrother]

What pros? What cons? I've seen almost no usable information on this deal but Harper and right wing economists are in overdrive assuring me that it's wonderful. Excuse me if I'd like to make up my own mind.

No, I think the people should be preserved no matter what. Have you noticed that nobody in this election is even talking about the record numbers of homeless people and people living in poverty in this country? Everyone is talking about the middle class, whatever that is.

And you're skirting the issues. Why are we compensating corporations when it's the individuals that will be worst hit? And why are we giving foreign Corporations rights that Canadian citizens don't have? And why are corporate interests included in the negotiations but nobody else?

Really?

I'll just run down to the food bank and tell everyone in line that they can go get these mysterious retraining programs, whatever they are. They'll be driving Porsches in no time.

I see you've completely abandoned even talking about the small number of people who may potentially lose their jobs, and have gone on to another issue entirely.

I don't know how to respond to someone who 1. thinks all jobs should be preserved no matter what, and 2. can't even stay on topic.

[Wilber]

I think it is too early to make judgements about this deal, we just don't have enough information and even when it comes it will take some time to figure out the implications of what's in it. For now, It's better to be part of it than on the outside looking in. Whether it gets ratified or not will have to wait.

[ReeferMadness]

I think it is too early to make judgements about this deal, we just don't have enough information and even when it comes it will take some time to figure out the implications of what's in it. For now, It's better to be part of it than on the outside looking in. Whether it gets ratified or not will have to wait.

Yeah.

Have you noticed that CETA, which Harper also signed to enormous fanfare, hasn't been ratified? Why do you suppose that is?

It turns out that Europe, where they still believe in democracy, isn't so crazy about the investor state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanisms that give corporations more rights than their own citizens. Imagine that. So, now we have the same provision in TPP. Is this a way of corralling the Europeans and forcing them into a NAFTA style deal?

Our lazy, right wing press are presenting these trade deals as a balance of interests between countries. That's deeply misleading to the point of being wrong. The balance that is really being affected is between ordinary citizens, national governments and multi-national corporations.

[ToadBrother]

Yeah.

Have you noticed that CETA, which Harper also signed to enormous fanfare, hasn't been ratified? Why do you suppose that is?

It turns out that Europe, where they still believe in democracy, isn't so crazy about the investor state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanisms that give corporations more rights than their own citizens. Imagine that. So, now we have the same provision in TPP. Is this a way of corralling the Europeans and forcing them into a NAFTA style deal?

Our lazy, right wing press are presenting these trade deals as a balance of interests between countries. That's deeply misleading to the point of being wrong. The balance that is really being affected is between ordinary citizens, national governments and multi-national corporations.

You mean the Europe where the upper echelons of the EU are beyond any democratic scrutiny?

[ReeferMadness]

You mean the Europe where the upper echelons of the EU are beyond any democratic scrutiny?

And yet they still manage to understand that there is something wrong with giving corporations privileged, extrajudicial access to suing countries. Imagine that.

Somehow, in all the cheer leading and echo-chambers that drown out any intelligent debate in this country, that never comes up.

[ToadBrother]

And yet they still manage to understand that there is something wrong with giving corporations privileged, extrajudicial access to suing countries. Imagine that.

Somehow, in all the cheer leading and echo-chambers that drown out any intelligent debate in this country, that never comes up.

I think you have a lot to learn about Europe.

[eyeball]

And yet they still manage to understand that there is something wrong with giving corporations privileged, extrajudicial access to suing countries. Imagine that.

Somehow, in all the cheer leading and echo-chambers that drown out any intelligent debate in this country, that never comes up.

It's their privileged places at secret negotiating tables to the exclusion of voices speaking for labour and environmental interests that needs to come up the most in the wake of this trade coup.

[ReeferMadness]

I think you have a lot to learn about Europe.

I do. But I already know that they have the intelligence to be concerned about ISDS. Which seems to be something we lack.

[ReeferMadness]

It's their privileged places at secret negotiating tables to the exclusion of voices speaking for labour and environmental interests that needs to come up the most in the wake of this trade coup.

Our media doesn't seem to consider this matter of any consequence.

[nerve]

You mean how Ethyl Corp (the good folks who figured out how to put lead in gasoline) got $20 million because we wouldn't let them use the MMT additive (which was banned in California)?

Or how about Bilcon, who is currently suing us for $300 million because the environmental assessment thought it wasn't a great idea to build a quarry in the Bay of Fundy?

Do you guys even know about the investor state dispute settlement (ISDS) mechanisms that were in NAFTA and are now in the TPP? They supersede the courts and give the decision to a tribunal of private sector trade lawyers. The process is conducted in private and there is no appeal.

NAFTA chapter 11 has made Canada the most sued country in the world.

But hey. The important thing is that we don't worry about people who milk cows for a living. They need to sink or swim.

It will just be another input to lower the price of milk which could force farmers off their land, once they get the lobby weakened by reducing it - hey only 1 in 30 of them to start, they won't be able to resist further market opening, which means more big corps will buy up dairy farms ending family businesses and further liberating the market until as happened in the US - the market controls are removed completely and the supply system is ended. For people who don't mind big business perhaps not even Canadian ownership controlling their food supply not a bad deal, for farmers maybe it will present a challenge for them - we know that with the end of the wheat board, the Harper government isn't for socialized farming they support may the best business win we all know in the end that is a monopolized mega corp that will win that battle.

If we eased up the public service by 3.5% we are talking over 10,000 unemployed federal service workers, think what it would do in your workplace if one in every 30 people employed by that business were fired. Clearly 3.5% is just a small consension --- WELL IT IS REAL PEOPLES LIVES.

This is a trend "Since 2001, farm numbers have fallen in all receipts classes except for the $250,000-or-more class. About two-thirds (65.6%) of Canadian farms report less than $100,000 in receipts, while 17.4% were in the $100,000-to-$249,999 receipts category. Farms in the $250,000-or-more receipts category now account for 17.0% of farms, compared with 13.9% in 2001 (at 2005 constant prices)."

We all know big farming and monopolization is the agenda of the Conservatives.

You know only 500 dairy farms in Canada will be shut down as a result of the TPP by the conservatives. Its all good unless it is your farm. Are you one of the 250,000 receipts farmers?

And then the public -- but we will pay you ---- for not being a dairy farmer--- one of those but we will pay you not to fish cod?

What happened to those guys?

Difference cows aren't going extinct.

Is this the future of Canadian Dairy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery#/media/File:Surexploitation_morue_surpêcheEn.jpg

Why the heck are Canadian Dairy farmers being told they should be laid off?

http://www.heritage.nf.ca/articles/economy/moratorium-impacts.php

There are plenty of Cows why are they saying that 3% of Dairy farmers loosing their jobs is a modest concession?

How does that fly around the dinner tables of Canada's farmers?

What is next wheat going extinct?

Edited October 9, 2015 by nerve

[marcus]

all of this criticism calls into question the Harper Conservatives attempts to 'seal the election deal' with TPP... the last thing Harper needed was to have affected Canadian dairy farmers and auto-workers protesting in the final days of the campaign - hence, the 'bail-out' promises!

.

This could fall into NDP's hands. That's of course if they're able to communicate their opposition to it effectively. They are the sole party who is against it. With Hillary Clinton coming out against the TPP and Canadians' love for U.S. democrats, this could be their chance to reverse a downwards trend and make it their Niqba.

[Michael Hardner]

And who feels that? Even better, where is the analysis of that?

I'm not sure who feels it and who doesn't. The analysis will have to come as the details come out.

But, going back to what we were just discussing - I think we've agreed on the morality of supporting/not supporting trade agreements. No one can claim the moral high ground exclusively based on support/opposition of the TPP.