angrypenguin Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Well the details are trickling out anyways thanks to wikileaks. Hopefully Canadians let this stuff sink in before they go to the polls... especially the part about copyrights. Most Canadians have their head stuck up so far up their ass they don't even decide who they want to vote for until the election day. Come on man. I mean we're all political junkies on here, but the reality is that most Canadians are morons and don't treat their votes carefully. While I may disagree with many Lefties on this board, at least they care enough to look at polls, to research issues etc. We are the 1% when it comes to political awareness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Most Canadians have their head stuck up so far up their ass they don't even decide who they want to vote for until the election day. Come on man. I mean we're all political junkies on here, but the reality is that most Canadians are morons and don't treat their votes carefully. While I may disagree with many Lefties on this board, at least they care enough to look at polls, to research issues etc. We are the 1% when it comes to political awareness. Actually I think the people that frequent places like this are some of the lowest quality voters at all, because they are mostly party hacks. The only people that really impact the process are people with the capacity to change their minds. Party hacks just cancel each other out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Actually I think the people that frequent places like this are some of the lowest quality voters at all, because they are mostly party hacks. The only people that really impact the process are people with the capacity to change their minds. Party hacks just cancel each other out. I've never heard that term before. Can you please define "party hacks"? I was up front on a flight yesterday. I mentioned I was displeased that people would rather talk about the stupid Jays game versus Federal Politics. I was laughed out the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeferMadness Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Oh come on. You full well know that just because Canada wants to release it it's not up to just Canada So you and the rest of Team Harper can't have it both ways. Either it's a secret and he shouldn't be talking about it at all - or it's not and it should be released. The whole process of him patting himself on the back and using it for political points while telling us he can't release the details shows a distinct lack of integrity. And I don't really care what Chretien did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Most Canadians have their head stuck up so far up their ass they don't even decide who they want to vote for until the election day. That's generally what I do, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 That's generally what I do, actually. Me too. I guess some Canadians have their head stuck so far up their arse they wouldn't change their vote regardless of what their party candidate said or did. Thankfully there are those of us who keep an open mind, as opposed to a closed sphincter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 I voted Liberal because I thought it was the best choice for me at this time even though I'm not a fan of Trudeau. Hopefully that isn't a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeferMadness Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) The Canadians government should not be getting involved in deals where keeping the details from the Canadian public are invovled. This is not how Canadian policy should be made, and this deal should not be signed unless every single part of it is shared with the taxpayer and debated in the HOC. Funny that anyone would even try to defend this... Yeah. And yet people not only accept it, they've already decided it's a good deal based on what Harper and right wing economists say. Democracy is a facade. According to Wikipedia, the Americans have briefed Corporations on the deal - but who has Harper involved in Canada? Is it just the government or has he brought in oil companies and the big banks? Does anyone know? Does anyone care? The fact is that this is now a done deal for Canada. The only way it won't pass is if the US or Japan turns it down. Canadian citizens are peons - Harper is trading away our rights without telling us. And it seems most of us don't even know. Or care. Here are a few other choice quotes from Wikipedia: According to The Nation's interpretation of leaked documents in 2012, countries would be obliged to conform all their domestic laws and regulations to the TPP's rules, even limiting how governments could spend their tax dollars.[113] As of 2012, US negotiators were pursuing an investor-state dispute settlement mechanism, also known as corporate tribunals, which according to The Nation can be used to "attack domestic public interest laws". The majority of Congress is being kept in the dark as to the substance of the TPP negotiations, while representatives of U.S. corporations—like Halliburton, Chevron, PHRMA, Comcast, and the Motion Picture Association of America—are being consulted and made privy to details of the agreement. (we're not even being told who Harper has consulted) The Electronic Frontier Foundation[109] has been highly critical of the leaked draft chapter on intellectual property covering copyright, trademarks, and patents. A June 2015 article in the New England Journal of Medicine summarized concerns about TPP´s impact on healthcare in developed and less developed countries including potentially increased prices of medical drugs due to patent extensions, which it claimed, could threaten millions of lives. millions of lives. Former US Labor Secretary Robert Reich has opposed the TPP because he says it would delay cheaper generic versions of drugs, and because of its provisions for international tribunals that can require corporations be paid "compensation for any lost profits found to result from a nation's regulations. In 2013, Nobel Memorial prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz warned that based on leaked drafts of the TPP, it presented "grave risks" and "serves the interests of the wealthiest."[14][163] Organised labour in the U.S. argued that the trade deal would largely benefit corporations at the expense of workers in the manufacturing and service industries.[164] The Economic Policy Institute and the Center for Economic and Policy Research argued that the TPP could result in further job losses and declining wages.[ Paul Krugman reported, "... I'll be undismayed and even a bit relieved if the T.P.P. just fades away", and said that "... there isn't a compelling case for this deal, from either a global or a national point of view." In 2013, Sierra Club's director of responsible trade, Ilana Solomon, argued that the TPP "could directly threaten our climate and our environment [including] new rights that would be given to corporations, and new constraints on the fossil fuel industry all have a huge impact on our climate, water, and land It goes on and on. This is why this agreement was negotiated in secret and sprung on us. This isn't about being good for Canada or being bad for Canada. It's about what is good for corporations and bad for citizens. Edited October 11, 2015 by ReeferMadness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 right wing economists say. It's probably a conspiracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReeferMadness Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 It's probably a conspiracy. That's really not helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerve Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) On what economists and trade experts are saying. It means it's not going to be the game changer the TPP's supporters are saying, but to be excluded from the TPP club would be very bad indeed. If we only have 500 people lose minimum wage jobs from such a deal, then that's hardly beyond normal statistical "background noise". Thats not 500 people that is 500 family farms going broke and being bought up by big business - then that causing trickle down putting more on the bottom end out of business, until only big business owns farming in Canada, exercising a new lobby that will be a downward slope for protections for the industry which will no longer be about canadians but rather about a faceless numbered corporatist agenda. You keep saying Canada will be in a bad position? Really? Can Canada not negotiate free trade deals with the other 5 countries it hasn't yet. doesn't Canada already have trade deals? If these measures are so good for Canada why wern't they put into the other 40 trade deals that were bilateral? What is the real benefit here? Really? Sonuds like more concenssions and no real benefits? What are the benefits. OH IT WILL BE SO BAD BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HECK IS IN IT.. SCARE MONGERING AND SHILL SPEAK. There is nothing beneficial to Canada in this that it couldn't get in a bilateral treaty PLUS this thing is giving away what wasn't acceptable to give away in the past, it still ain't acceptable. Allowing trade is one thing, but giving protections to big business is another. This ain't a trade deal it is giving powers and protections to big business to force more profits from countries that it doesn't own. If this what just about tarrifs it would be anothe thing completely, this is about changing domestic LAWS, that judges and governments put down rules for to protect interests.. this deal walks all over that, and the public will that was imbedded in that and just says, you can make more off of us, and we will pay you more for your goods and no one else can make those goods. THIS ISN'T FREE TRADE, IT IS CORPORATE TRADE PROTECTIONISM!!!! THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FREE TRADE WAKE THE HELL UP!!!! This is about them getting to be the only people to make anything they think of or buy off of the weak... then they can put any price they want on it. That is what this deal is about. IT IS NOT FREE TRADE, IT IS ABOUT CORPORATE GREED AND SUCKING AS MUCH MONEY OUT OF CONSUMERS AS POSSIBLE. NO GOVERNMENT OF THE PEOPLE WOULD AGREE TO THAT! Canada just gets bought out or gang raped on the global market, IT WILL NOT BENIFIT CANADA! These arn't "Canadian businesses" raping Canadian people. THIS IS THE BIG GLOBAL BUSINESSES DOING IT, and Canada getting nothing as a middle man. Very few sectors are Canadian on the global market.. just try naming all the big global businesses and see how many foreign ones you can name and realize that the playing field will be balanced against Canadian ones after this deal is done. Canada is a dying market for IP it gets its bought out, and genreally the Federal Government has let big Canadian IP holders die, NORTEL, Blackberry etc.. It is NOT well positioned for this deal, it is a HUGE mistake. The legal liabilities are massive, jail time for stuff that hasn't been crimnal in Canada and many many lawsuits for activites that were legal prior to it being ratified. There are too many faults of this treaty to consider it. This "ALL or nothing" approach is dangling the carrot, to get all the stuff people would never accept. WHY NEGOTIATE THAT? Giving away legal rights so big foreign business makes money easier? IT IS TOO INVASIVE!!! AND IT IS A VIOLATION OF NAFTA. This introduces a MAJOR issue if any of the three NAFTA parties does not agree AND creates a giant black hole for that deal. Edited October 11, 2015 by nerve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 I have noticed Harper has promised billions of tax dollars for certain industries. Surly the sign of a great deal (/sarcasm). I think the dairy industry is looking at $4 billion and the auto at around $1 billion. Any word on how that is going to be paid for? From existing budget? One time deficit? Tax increase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrypenguin Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) I have noticed Harper has promised billions of tax dollars for certain industries. Surly the sign of a great deal (/sarcasm). ---SNIP--- Did you read the costing platform?? Edited October 12, 2015 by Charles Anthony ---SNIP--- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Did you read the costing platform?? Great question. If you excerpted the executive summary here that would probably help the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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