Harper's Rare Misstep on the TPP

[ReeferMadness]

I'm not sure who feels it and who doesn't. The analysis will have to come as the details come out.

But, going back to what we were just discussing - I think we've agreed on the morality of supporting/not supporting trade agreements. No one can claim the moral high ground exclusively based on support/opposition of the TPP.

If you're trying to claim moral high ground, you've already lost it.

The problem right now is that Harper and his echo chamber of right wing economists are running around spreading propaganda about how great this deal is and even if it is released before the election, it won't be understood in time. It's thousands of pages.

And, based on this discussion, beyond some academic notion of whether it's good deal for Canada (how do you even measure that), nobody seems to care how many people will find themselves discarded.

[ToadBrother]

If you're trying to claim moral high ground, you've already lost it.

The problem right now is that Harper and his echo chamber of right wing economists are running around spreading propaganda about how great this deal is and even if it is released before the election, it won't be understood in time. It's thousands of pages.

And, based on this discussion, beyond some academic notion of whether it's good deal for Canada (how do you even measure that), nobody seems to care how many people will find themselves discarded.

Well, I'm no Harper supporter, but I think the general sentiment of the agreement, that it won't do that much for the Canadian economy, but not being in the TPP would make things much worse, is pretty sensible.

[ReeferMadness]

Well, I'm no Harper supporter, but I think the general sentiment of the agreement, that it won't do that much for the Canadian economy, but not being in the TPP would make things much worse, is pretty sensible.

And you base this general sentiment on what?

And more to the point, what does "it won't do that much for the Canadian economy' mean? If 500 people lose minimum wage jobs and find themselves living on the street, you're right, that won't be noticed much in the GDP numbers. Does that make it OK?

[ToadBrother]

And you base this general sentiment on what?

On what economists and trade experts are saying.

And more to the point, what does "it won't do that much for the Canadian economy' mean? If 500 people lose minimum wage jobs and find themselves living on the street, you're right, that won't be noticed much in the GDP numbers. Does that make it OK?

It means it's not going to be the game changer the TPP's supporters are saying, but to be excluded from the TPP club would be very bad indeed.

If we only have 500 people lose minimum wage jobs from such a deal, then that's hardly beyond normal statistical "background noise".

[ReeferMadness]

On what economists and trade experts are saying.

Wow. I feel so much better now. I no longer need to think for myself - I've got economists and trade experts to do that for me.

If we only have 500 people lose minimum wage jobs from such a deal, then that's hardly beyond normal statistical "background noise".

Yeah. I'm sure those 500 people probably feel much better. It doesn't matter that I don't have a place to live because I'm just statistical background noise.

When right wing media talk about Canada winning or losing from a trade deal, they're pandering to peoples natural tribal instincts. What nobody seems to have figured out is that the tribes have changed. From the perspective of corporations and the very wealthy, the tribes aren't Canadian vs American. It's the super wealthy vs everyone else. And these deals might be a mixed bag for peons and small businesses but they are universally good for corporations.

The automotive industry executives must be laughing and high-fiving each other. This deal was already going to lower their labor costs because it allows them to threaten to move the plants elsewhere. And then Harper turned around and threw a billion dollars at them.

[ToadBrother]

Yeah. I'm sure those 500 people probably feel much better. It doesn't matter that I don't have a place to live because I'm just statistical background noise.

If there are any minimum wage job earners put out of work (a claim you have yet to actually substantiate), then the aforementioned Federally-funded Provincially-delivered retraining programs will come to their assistance, and they'll be able to find work outside the industry you claim they work for.

[Wilber]

I doubt it will be minimum wage earners who bear the brunt of any job loss from the TPP.

[ReeferMadness]

I doubt it will be minimum wage earners who bear the brunt of any job loss from the TPP.

We can all doubt. Surmise. Imagine. Conjure.

What we can't do is analyze; because even though the politicians and corporations know what's in the deal, we're not allowed to know.

That doesn't stop people around here from accepting that it's a 'good deal for Canada' (whatever that means) because the same right wing economists who tell us every trade deal is good say the same about this one.

[ToadBrother]

We can all doubt. Surmise. Imagine. Conjure.

What we can't do is analyze; because even though the politicians and corporations know what's in the deal, we're not allowed to know.

That doesn't stop people around here from accepting that it's a 'good deal for Canada' (whatever that means) because the same right wing economists who tell us every trade deal is good say the same about this one.

It certainly doesn't stop you from inventing scenarios involving minimum wage workers, that's for certain.

[ReeferMadness]

It certainly doesn't stop you from inventing scenarios involving minimum wage workers, that's for certain.

I'm asking questions that the media and the other parties should be asking. Who is going to lose and are we compensating the right people. It seems like you would rather just accept the PMs word that it's good for Canada (and just what DOES that mean anyway?)

Given that no party other than the Green Party even has policies designed to help the poor, it's evident that nobody in Canada gives 2 craps about poor people anymore. If you don't care, fine. No need to debate.

[Wilber]

We can all doubt. Surmise. Imagine. Conjure.

What we can't do is analyze; because even though the politicians and corporations know what's in the deal, we're not allowed to know.

That doesn't stop people around here from accepting that it's a 'good deal for Canada' (whatever that means) because the same right wing economists who tell us every trade deal is good say the same about this one.

Well, I don't think it will be minimum wage jobs that parts manufacturers will be looking to move to lower wage countries.

No, we don't know if this is a good deal and may not know for years.

[ReeferMadness]

Now, we're hearing Harper has given away the farm on intellectual property.

“Canadians are going to see their democratically-created laws over-written in favour of laws that benefit giant, U.S. media conglomerates and censor the Internet,” Sali said. “And while the government has been busy trying to convince Canadians of the so-called benefits of this pact, they’ve silently traded away our digital future behind closed doors.”

A statement released days ago by the New Zealand government, estimates the cost of copyright term extension for everyday New Zealanders at $55 million a year. Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law Michael Geist suggests the cost to Canadians could be to the tune of hundreds of millions per year. The leaks also reveal that while other countries such as New Zealand and Malaysia were able to negotiate to phase in changes to copyright terms, Canada will be accepting new terms with no transition period.

That would explain why they are so reluctant to release the full text on the deal.

[Michael Hardner]

If you're trying to claim moral high ground, you've already lost it.

I'm not, as my post said.

[Keepitsimple]

That's where I disagree with you. I think just saying that industries will need help because of the deal sends a mixed message about it. They say the deal is good, but they need to pump billions into industries to "soften the blow"? It won't add up for most people and given the secrecy around the negotiations and details, it's going to undermine the Tory message, imho.

You're making the naïve argument that the Dairy and Auto sectors are the only sectors that are in the TPP. Of course, that's not even remotely true.... and all those other sectors now have a huge new market to play in - while our Dairy farmers are hardly affected at all. Canadians are smart enough to figure it out - except for those suffering from HDS.

[angrypenguin]

Now, we're hearing Harper has given away the farm on intellectual property.

That would explain why they are so reluctant to release the full text on the deal.

Oh come on. You full well know that just because Canada wants to release it it's not up to just Canada

[dre]

Now, we're hearing Harper has given away the farm on intellectual property.

That would explain why they are so reluctant to release the full text on the deal.

Wow...

And we have to find out about this from wikileaks.

[dre]

Oh come on. You full well know that just because Canada wants to release it it's not up to just Canada

The Canadians government should not be getting involved in deals where keeping the details from the Canadian public are invovled. This is not how Canadian policy should be made, and this deal should not be signed unless every single part of it is shared with the taxpayer and debated in the HOC.

Funny that anyone would even try to defend this...

[angrypenguin]

The Canadians government should not be getting involved in deals where keeping the details from the Canadian public are invovled. This is not how Canadian policy should be made, and this deal should not be signed unless every single part of it is shared with the taxpayer and debated in the HOC.

Funny that anyone would even try to defend this...

No governments have released the TPP to their people yet. NONE.

I can't believe ANYONE would take on your position. 1) It would mean Canada would be put to shame if it leaked 2) It would undermine the ratification of this and smear our international reputation.

[On Guard for Thee]

No governments have released the TPP to their people yet. NONE.

I can't believe ANYONE would take on your position. 1) It would mean Canada would be put to shame if it leaked 2) It would undermine the ratification of this and smear our international reputation.

Obama will put the deal online 60 days before he signs it, ad that will only send it to congress. I wonder if our boy will be so open.

[ToadBrother]

Obama will put the deal online 60 days before he signs it, ad that will only send it to congress. I wonder if our boy will be so open.

At this point there are better than seven odda that Harper will no longer be PM by that point.

[On Guard for Thee]

At this point there are better than seven odda that Harper will no longer be PM by that point.

That is quite true, especially looking at the latest Poll Tracker results.

[dre]

No governments have released the TPP to their people yet. NONE.

I can't believe ANYONE would take on your position. 1) It would mean Canada would be put to shame if it leaked 2) It would undermine the ratification of this and smear our international reputation.

But it SHOULDNT be ratified if Canadians dont want it. And Canada should not even be part of any negotiations that require it to keep things secret from taxpayers.

[angrypenguin]

But it SHOULDNT be ratified if Canadians dont want it. And Canada should not even be part of any negotiations that require it to keep things secret from taxpayers.

Oh come on! Are you serious???

The government is pushing for the release of the details prior to Oct 19. This has to be ratified by Parliament and that will come at some day, but Parliament has to approve it. And by that point all the details will be public.

The issue is we are in an election and people want to see it (apparently) before the 19th of October. The other countries couldn't give two shits that we are in an election

[On Guard for Thee]

Oh come on! Are you serious???

The government is pushing for the release of the details prior to Oct 19. This has to be ratified by Parliament and that will come at some day, but Parliament has to approve it. And by that point all the details will be public.

The issue is we are in an election and people want to see it (apparently) before the 19th of October. The other countries couldn't give two shits that we are in an election

Ed Fast said we would see the deal prior to the 19th. Let's see if they honor that promise.

I have my doubts.

Edited October 11, 2015 by On Guard for Thee

[dre]

Oh come on! Are you serious???

The government is pushing for the release of the details prior to Oct 19. This has to be ratified by Parliament and that will come at some day, but Parliament has to approve it. And by that point all the details will be public.

The issue is we are in an election and people want to see it (apparently) before the 19th of October. The other countries couldn't give two shits that we are in an election

Well the details are trickling out anyways thanks to wikileaks. Hopefully Canadians let this stuff sink in before they go to the polls... especially the part about copyrights.