angrypenguin Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) I am giving you a factual figure my friend but I see that we agree to disagree and I respect your view on the subject. Those who don't vote still are citizens of this country and will be counted as citizens but they do not have anyone or any party who will address their beliefs and issues. So should they vote anyhow for someone they don't believe in? Btw, recent Nanos poll shows Liberals back in the lead even though it is statistically a clear tie. May be the strategic voting is very gradually materializing as NDP very gradually dropping or Trudeau is dong much better than what was expected of him. Liberals, Conservatives in dead heat with NDP trailing: Nanos poll Well, the PC votes are allegedly coming from the NDP...so... Edited September 30, 2015 by angrypenguin Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
eyeball Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 I don't think people are saying it's bad for democracy. People are free to cast their vote any way they choose. It just seems like a fruitless and confusing exercise - dependent on "knowing" how everyone else will vote. But that's the beauty of democracy - and our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. People have the right to be dumb, er...strategic. You make it sound like strategic voters just go eenie meenie miney moe behind the screen. It clearly depends on thinking about how everyone else will vote which if anything prompts me to ask friends and co-workers what they think of things. I'm actually pretty encouraged by the number of people I've asked who seem to be doing just that, a lot of thinking. I'm also encouraged that there are more tools available to strategic voters who are determined to make their vote count no matter what. I live in a riding that's changed boundaries so that might have something to do with it. There's a different uncertainty in the air. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
angrypenguin Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 You make it sound like strategic voters just go eenie meenie miney moe behind the screen. It clearly depends on thinking about how everyone else will vote which if anything prompts me to ask friends and co-workers what they think of things. I'm actually pretty encouraged by the number of people I've asked who seem to be doing just that, a lot of thinking. I'm also encouraged that there are more tools available to strategic voters who are determined to make their vote count no matter what. I live in a riding that's changed boundaries so that might have something to do with it. There's a different uncertainty in the air. I know my riding was affected this way. Usually PC, but 308 puts the PC at 53% probability. It's all teeter totter due to the riding changes. Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 What scares the lefties ,is the fact harper has done a amazing job as PM and that just does not sit well with them. Especially after realizing Chretien really did nothing in 13 yrs as PM, except rip off the taxpayer. By amazing, you mean he's had probably one of the most unproductive majorities in recent history. The Tories as a minority government were surprisingly vibrant and feisty government. As a majority, they've been lethargic and, if I may say so, blundered on a number of files. But hey, you obviuosly think he's the greatest ever, so please do blame the media or some other group for the Tories' current difficulties getting close to majority territory. Quote
angrypenguin Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 By amazing, you mean he's had probably one of the most unproductive majorities in recent history. The Tories as a minority government were surprisingly vibrant and feisty government. As a majority, they've been lethargic and, if I may say so, blundered on a number of files. But hey, you obviuosly think he's the greatest ever, so please do blame the media or some other group for the Tories' current difficulties getting close to majority territory. They passed Bill C51 and 24 in 4 years. For how complex those are, I'm surprised you're insinuating the Tories were slow. Do you remember the Liberal majority days? Quote My views are my own and not those of my employer.
Machjo Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 Strategic voting guarantees that the second-worse candidate will always win. Principled voting might allow the worst in, but only until people smarten up and start voting for the best candidate. It's a price worth paying. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
Hudson Jones Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 What scares the lefties ,is the fact harper has done a amazing job as PM and that just does not sit well with them. Especially after realizing Chretien really did nothing in 13 yrs as PM, except rip off the taxpayer. Does anything that is talked about in regards to Harper's job performance ever penetrate into your brain? Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Evening Star Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 You've phrased the question wrong. The question should be "Why are the Tories so unpopular that Liberals and NDPers are willing to abandon their own party and vote for the other one based upon the likelihood of depriving the Tories of government?" That's a different question than the one I was asking. (I know the answer to this one.) I just have a suspicion that Liberals promote 'strategic' voting as a way to boost Liberal support. I don't remember seeing as many Liberals insisting that strategically voting NDP was a necessity a couple of weeks ago. Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 What I have a major problem with is people who insist that other voters vote in a 'strategic' manner by saying things like "it needs to be done" (no, it doesn't) or "if you vote NDP, you are effectively voting Conservative (based on polls from the last couple of days)" (and no, you're not, anyway). Yeah I have a problem with that too. Like all those people crying foul in 2000 when people voted for Ralph Nader, a very competent independent US candidate, and saying it was a vote for W. Bush. Nothing wrong with voting your conscience either. If there's anything I have a problem with, it's people who vote after not bothering to inform themselves at all...then they vote based on stereotypes, heresay, or TV commercials. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
eyeball Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 Strategic voting guarantees that the second-worse candidate will always win. Principled voting might allow the worst in, but only until people smarten up and start voting for the best candidate. It's a price worth paying. The least worse to the strategic voter, which is no different than saying the best. Why is strategic voting unprincipled? Is there no room for the non-partisan voter in our system, we all have to belong to a team to be principled? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Machjo Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 I'm quite non-partisan actually, preferring to vote for the best local candidate independently of party affiliation. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
Evening Star Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 Yeah I have a problem with that too. Like all those people crying foul in 2000 when people voted for Ralph Nader, a very competent independent US candidate, and saying it was a vote for W. Bush. That's pretty annoying too, and a pretty weak argument imo: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/06/1260721/-The-Nader-Myth http://disinfo.com/2010/11/debunked-the-myth-that-ralph-nader-cost-al-gore-the-2000-election/ Quote
Keepitsimple Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 That's a different question than the one I was asking. (I know the answer to this one.) I just have a suspicion that Liberals promote 'strategic' voting as a way to boost Liberal support. I don't remember seeing as many Liberals insisting that strategically voting NDP was a necessity a couple of weeks ago. Yep - you nailed that one! Quote Back to Basics
eyeball Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 I'm quite non-partisan actually, preferring to vote for the best local candidate independently of party affiliation. Why is strategically voting for who you believe will be the least worse unprincipled though? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Machjo Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 Because it rewards and thus encourages mediocrity by rewarding the pursuit of the 'anything but' vote rather than presenting actual competence. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
CITIZEN_2015 Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) Why is strategically voting for who you believe will be the least worse unprincipled though? Nothing wrong with strategic voting to choose the least worse or to prevent the worst or most incompetent taking over, better defines it. It is a plot by Tory supporters and religious right to make a good positive act look bad and deter a good positive strategic deed. They fool no one. Recent polls shows a small rise in Liberal fortune (and I intended to vote for NDP until a few days ago but Liberals address most of my beliefs too) and a small fall in NDP. Edited September 30, 2015 by CITIZEN_2015 Quote
eyeball Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 Because it rewards and thus encourages mediocrity by rewarding the pursuit of the 'anything but' vote rather than presenting actual competence. I fail to see why a strategic voter wouldn't have cause to feel the same way about so-called principled voters on occasion. These are just differing opinions or value judgements that people make. They may be misguided or wrong but why unprincipled? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 Because it rewards and thus encourages mediocrity by rewarding the pursuit of the 'anything but' vote rather than presenting actual competence. I can't even decrypt your argument. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 Strategic voting is just a symptom of a broken voting system. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 Strategic voting is just a symptom of a broken voting system. Perhaps, but it is the best that is available now. Quote
Machjo Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 I can't even decrypt your argument. Let's put it this way. If I vote for the best candidate even if he stands no chance of winning, I'll have at least expressed my general support for his ideas, and so encourage other candidates to won my vote next time. If I merely vote for the second-best candidate, I falsely signal that I like his ideas and so encourage future candidates to adopt his ideas to win my vote. Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
Machjo Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 There is also a basic question of justice. Why not give your vote to the one who most deserves it independently of his ability to win? Quote With friends like Zionists, what Jew needs enemies? With friends like Islamists, what Muslim needs enemies?
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 There is also a basic question of justice. Why not give your vote to the one who most deserves it independently of his ability to win? What does that have to do with justice, and why is that a better variable to consider than who you don't want to win? Quote
eyeball Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 (edited) Strategic voting is just a symptom of a broken voting system. Isn't it more like an adaptation? Perhaps, but it is the best that is available now. We'll see what adaptation and evolution under the forceful pressure of an unrelenting status quo has in store - probably something unexpected. Probably something technological involving strategists actually informing and coordinating with other strategists through an election app. We can call it Uber-voting. The usual suspects will probably call it terrorism. Edited September 30, 2015 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
ToadBrother Posted September 30, 2015 Report Posted September 30, 2015 Isn't it more like an adaptation? You say potato, I saw putato... We'll see what adaptation and evolution under the forceful pressure of an unrelenting status quo has in store - probably something unexpected. Probably something technological involving strategists actually informing and coordinating with other strategists through an election app. We can call it Uber-voting. The usual suspects will probably call it terrorism. Unless the Tories manage a majority, we will have two parties with a majority of seats who have stated they will reform the electoral system. Unless one or both of them are lying, I'd say that currently, three weeks out from the election, that gives far better than even odds that this will be the last Federal FPTP Canada has. I can only hope we don't go for a party list system, which I deeply dislike. MPs should at least have some sort of direct constituency. Quote
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