To defeat terrorism, we must leave the Middle-East

Army Guy · September 22, 2015

If you are talking natural disasters, we don't need a military but a large civilian rescue group. But no matter how much you prepare, things like the ice storm in Ontario back in I think it was 98-99, just dragged on and on and on. Not even the US was able to cope as many of our utility crews assisted stateside to get things back to normal. And yeah, shit does happen. We live on a dynamic planet. tectonic plates move, quakes happen, extreme weather events cause havoc.

I used those to small examples to demonstrate just how small and effective our military really is when dealing with smaller issues....of course it does not include things like Combat, that would make everything thousands of times more difficult to mange.... and require more than just 3 Army brigades to handle anything larger.....Use the Afghanistan example as a table of measure.....at most we could deploy 4000 soldiers overseas, and only for a short period of time....while domestically we could deploy a little more but would have no replacements.....

That would be some rescue group, hence why it was tasked out to the military.....because we already have most of the equipment and would mean paying for similar equipment all over again, but of course you already knew that.....

It dragged on because there was a lack of men and equipment to respond.....which is my point , our military is over tasked and under manned....

I'd like to see that news cast from the PM.....well folks, shit happens, sorry but we do not have the men and equipment to come to your aid.....maybe next time....

eyeball · September 22, 2015

The problem with referendums is the pro invasion side would always win anyways. Canadians supported the Afghanistand mission at first... The government more or less told us it would be quick, cheap, and easy. It wasnt until we realized how bad we suck at such missions, and realized we were going to be wasting blood and treasure there for a decade that public opinion turned against it.

Same goes for the latest round of idiocy we are now involved in over there. Polls I saw said that Canadians actually supported it.

People are easily lead into war. You just gotta bullshit them about the importance of the mission, and what will be entailed, and make people fear-dumb by trumping up the enemy and threat it faces, and people will come along. And if they dont you denounce them as unpatriotic traitors.

Wel...ffs then. If Canadians really are freaking stupid enough to keep enabling this they need every bit of blowback they can attract - the path to enlightenment being painful and all that.

No pain no gain.

Stupid goddamn idiots.

Bonam · September 22, 2015

Wel...ffs then. If Canadians really are freaking stupid enough to keep enabling this they need every bit of blowback they can attract - the path to enlightenment being painful and all that.

No pain no gain.

So collective punishment applies to Canadians in your mind then, yes?

eyeball · September 22, 2015

No, enlightenment applies.

bush_cheney2004 · September 22, 2015

...Note where I said a mandatory referendum for invasions.

But not required for just bombing campaigns ? Economic sanctions ? Kidnapping presidents ?

On Guard for Thee · September 22, 2015

But not required for just bombing campaigns ? Economic sanctions ? Kidnapping presidents ?

Are you seeking redemption?

eyeball · September 22, 2015

I'm pretty sure he's looking for kudos.

But not required for just bombing campaigns ? Economic sanctions ? Kidnapping presidents ?

No not for economic sanctions against dictators or patrons thereof. I'd prefer those simply be mandated automatically by law.

Moonlight Graham · September 22, 2015

Early in the Afghan mission, all the parties agreed to send troops, as did the majority of citizens, except Eyeball and a few others......So off we went to War, but as it grew unpopular, the citizens failed in all it's responsibilities.....as long as the hockey games, and pogey checks came in on time everyone was cool.......Except those young men and women coming home in flagged draped coffins, taking that long journey down the highway of hero's......Canadians would take a pause, feel some regret, then go about their business.....So while we as Canadians love to point our fingers at someone else.....in this case we need to point those fingers inward.....

How did the citizens fail in their responsibilities? After the first several months Afghanistan became a stupid war. Canadians realized that. NATO got into a mess trying to do nation-building and democracy-building in a hopelessly backwards country that's been in civil war for decades and is still in civil war despite our efforts being involved in the longest war in Canadian and American history. NATO became obsessed with defeating the Taliban, who didn't attack the West. Al-Qaeda did. After 9/11, the smart response would have been for the US to light up the skies from above, attacking any al-Qaeda camps and targets it could find, as well as dropping bombs/missiles on key Taliban targets to punish them for harbouring al-Qaeda and not handing them over. Possibly some limited ground troops to clean up main al-Qaeda targets. Canada and NATO could have provided some intelligence or logistical assistance but quite frankly the US would have been more than capable of doing that on their own.

After this was completed, the US (with allied support) could have kept satellites keyed on Afghanistan, and if there was any signs of al-Qaeda forming any kind of operations again, drop more airstrikes. If the Taliban continued to support al-Qaeda, drop more airstrikes on Taliban targets until they agree to stop and negotiate a truce. Very simple, very cheap, very quick, minimal casualties on our side and minimal civilian casualties on their side. We probably would have been out of there in about a year or less. I supported us leaving Afghanistan for most of the 2000's once I figured this out.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Moonlight Graham

Moonlight Graham · September 22, 2015

The period after WWII is the longest period in recorded human history during which no major powers have directly fought each other, as far as I know.

I believe the Concert of Europe, the 100 years between the Napoleonic Wars and WWI, was the longest period, since the creation of the international sovereign state system at least (1648). Though it was interrupted by the Crimean War, so maybe you're right.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/world_war_1-1.htm

Edited September 22, 2015 by Moonlight Graham

Rue · September 22, 2015

Bonam you forgot the Korean war.

Army Guy · September 23, 2015

How did the citizens fail in their responsibilities? After the first several months Afghanistan became a stupid war. Canadians realized that. NATO got into a mess trying to do nation-building and democracy-building in a hopelessly backwards country that's been in civil war for decades and is still in civil war despite our efforts being involved in the longest war in Canadian and American history. NATO became obsessed with defeating the Taliban, who didn't attack the West. Al-Qaeda did. After 9/11, the smart response would have been for the US to light up the skies from above, attacking any al-Qaeda camps and targets it could find, as well as dropping bombs/missiles on key Taliban targets to punish them for harbouring al-Qaeda and not handing them over. Possibly some limited ground troops to clean up main al-Qaeda targets. Canada and NATO could have provided some intelligence or logistical assistance but quite frankly the US would have been more than capable of doing that on their own.

After this was completed, the US (with allied support) could have kept satellites keyed on Afghanistan, and if there was any signs of al-Qaeda forming any kind of operations again, drop more airstrikes. If the Taliban continued to support al-Qaeda, drop more airstrikes on Taliban targets until they agree to stop and negotiate a truce. Very simple, very cheap, very quick, minimal casualties on our side and minimal civilian casualties on their side. We probably would have been out of there in about a year or less. I supported us leaving Afghanistan for most of the 2000's once I figured this out.

Do you think your responsibilities end with following the laws of our nation, voting every 4 years is that how democracy works now....Even Russians get to vote every 4 years.....but wait a minute do they have a democracy....Any government that wants to get voted back in has to listen to the people, i'll leave it there for you to figure it out....

Maybe next time you can run the next conflict....you seem you know exactly what is needed....or maybe it was a lot more complicated than you make it out to be.....Canadians did not give a sweet fuck about anything going on in Afghan.....lost interest until young men and women started coming home in aluminum caskets.....and even then once the days news was over, nobody even remembered the soldiers name....and from a soldiers point of view, Canadian citizens had forgotten us , like yesterdays news....sure everyone had those neat little stickers showing support for our soldiers, even had a few rallies to show the government they were not happy with the war.....but nation wide nothing and i understand, they had no skin in the game....but the when soldiers needed you the most, Canadian citizens left them on the battle field...with no support, very little funding, the wrong equipment, wrong vehs, the list goes on....and on....

Big Guy · September 23, 2015

How did the citizens fail in their responsibilities? After the first several months Afghanistan became a stupid war. Canadians realized that. NATO got into a mess trying to do nation-building and democracy-building in a hopelessly backwards country that's been in civil war for decades and is still in civil war despite our efforts being involved in the longest war in Canadian and American history. NATO became obsessed with defeating the Taliban, who didn't attack the West. Al-Qaeda did. After 9/11, the smart response would have been for the US to light up the skies from above, attacking any al-Qaeda camps and targets it could find, as well as dropping bombs/missiles on key Taliban targets to punish them for harbouring al-Qaeda and not handing them over. Possibly some limited ground troops to clean up main al-Qaeda targets. Canada and NATO could have provided some intelligence or logistical assistance but quite frankly the US would have been more than capable of doing that on their own.

After this was completed, the US (with allied support) could have kept satellites keyed on Afghanistan, and if there was any signs of al-Qaeda forming any kind of operations again, drop more airstrikes. If the Taliban continued to support al-Qaeda, drop more airstrikes on Taliban targets until they agree to stop and negotiate a truce. Very simple, very cheap, very quick, minimal casualties on our side and minimal civilian casualties on their side. We probably would have been out of there in about a year or less. I supported us leaving Afghanistan for most of the 2000's once I figured this out.

What everyone seems to have forgotten is that the American leadership at the time had an opportunity to move Bin Laden to a third country and pursue him through the courts. They chose not to and "attacked" Afghanistan.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

That is where the fiasco began.

bush_cheney2004 · September 23, 2015

What everyone seems to have forgotten is that the American leadership at the time had an opportunity to move Bin Laden to a third country and pursue him through the courts. They chose not to and "attacked" Afghanistan.

What some seem to have forgotten is that Afghanistan was also invaded to destroy training camps and safe haven for Al Qaeda.

eyeball · September 23, 2015

What some seem to have forgotten is that Afghanistan was also invaded to destroy training camps and safe haven for Al Qaeda.

How'd that work out for you anyway? Al qaeda is planning on invading us now, or so I've been given to believe.

bush_cheney2004 · September 23, 2015

How'd that work out for you anyway? Al qaeda is planning on invading us now, or so I've been given to believe.

Ask them yourself.....they are afraid to order pizza delivered by drones.

On Guard for Thee · September 23, 2015

Ask them yourself.....they are afraid to order pizza delivered by drones.

Again, you didn't answer the question.

Moonlight Graham · September 23, 2015

Maybe next time you can run the next conflict....you seem you know exactly what is needed....or maybe it was a lot more complicated than you make it out to be.....

I can run it better than Harper, Obama, or W. Bush. Yes, it is a very complicated region, that's my point. It's far too complicated to control, we have no idea what we're doing in there, and unexpected consequences abound and has increasingly blown up in our faces.

Canadians did not give a sweet fuck about anything going on in Afghan.....lost interest until young men and women started coming home in aluminum caskets.....and even then once the days news was over, nobody even remembered the soldiers name....and from a soldiers point of view, Canadian citizens had forgotten us , like yesterdays news....sure everyone had those neat little stickers showing support for our soldiers, even had a few rallies to show the government they were not happy with the war.....but nation wide nothing and i understand, they had no skin in the game....but the when soldiers needed you the most, Canadian citizens left them on the battle field...with no support, very little funding, the wrong equipment, wrong vehs, the list goes on....and on....

You're right, Canadians did fail in their responsibility. We should have pressured our politicians to bring the troops home from Afghanistan many years earlier from that stupid, stupid war. Afghanistan is still a corrupt hellhole with few human rights and knee-deep in civil war, the Taliban still fights and kills, and the Afghan security force is a joke. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/afghanistan-troops-killed-in-series-of-taliban-attacks/

Moonlight Graham · September 23, 2015

"There is no compelling reason to believe that anything we are currently doing will be sufficient to achieve our strategic objective of degrading and ultimately destroying ISIL." - John McCain.

------------

In any event, it is an article of military faith, well acknowledged by the White House and Pentagon and repeated at the committee last week, that airstrikes alone will not accomplish victory. If victory against ISIS is even possible, it will require ground forces, which American and its allies say must come from local armies. But entire American-trained Iraqi divisions have thrown down their weapons and fled before ISIS.

And when a committee member asked last week what has happened to the most important piece of the Pentagon's plan to mobilize the fight against ISIS and Assad, a program that was designed to train 5,400 Syrian fighters within a year, the answer made headlines.

Gen. Lloyd Austin, the person in charge of U.S. Central Command, replied: "It's a small number. The ones that are in the fight is, we're talking, four or five." Tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars, and four or five trained Syrian fighters at the coalition's disposal on the ground.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-neil-macdonald-isis-1.3239300

#Winning!

Rue · September 23, 2015

" I can run it better than Harper, Bush..."

You think so Moonlight?

This is precisely the kind of rhetoric that renders what you say absurd. You actually believe what you wrote.

eyeball · September 23, 2015

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-neil-macdonald-isis-1.3239300

From the article;

So, to summarize, and I'm using the words of the prime minister here, ISIS is a barbaric, fanatic, radically violent bunch of jihadist terrorist murderers. And they threaten Canadians every single day. And fighting them begins with calling them all those things, and if you can't call them those things, you aren't a fighter.

In the sane vein, when the PM says the leader of the opposition is with the terrorists and then he doesn't have him arrested for that...he's full of crap.

Moonlight Graham · September 23, 2015

" I can run it better than Harper, Bush..."

You think so Moonlight?

This is precisely the kind of rhetoric that renders what you say absurd. You actually believe what you wrote.

Why are you misquoting me? My quote said: "I can run it better than Harper, Obama, or W. Bush." You have a real problem with twisting the words around of what other people say. You sure you're not a politician?

Harper, Bush, and Obama's foreign policy in the middle-east have all been a disaster. Anyone with half a brain and a history textbook could run it better.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Moonlight Graham

bush_cheney2004 · September 23, 2015

I can run it better than Harper, Obama, or W. Bush.

Nope...you have neither the experience, standing, or resources to do so.

You're right, Canadians did fail in their responsibility. We should have pressured our politicians to bring the troops home from Afghanistan many years earlier from that stupid, stupid war.

The same way that Canadians supported sending them there in the first place ?

WIP · September 23, 2015

The USA is a "warrior" nation and proud of it. They celebrate their wars and commemorate their battles and warrior deaths. They are also proud of the hundreds of thousands of white crosses on acres and acres of military cemeteries. They are prepared to spend $trillions on military equipment. As to the legitimacy of their invasions - there is a reason why the term "My nation right or wrong" was coined in America. That seems to keep the average American happy. Good for them. Each to his own.

I would add that this "warrior nation" mythos has been a series of lies from the very start. The original 13 colonies joined together and began a century-long effort to ethnically cleanse the continent of its indigenous inhabitants, and seize land from the colonial empire to the south - Spain. And on this new land, most of the wealth generated in the first 8 decades or so came by way of importing African slaves. But, today's warrior nation- America is using its combined military forces to enforce and retain control of its commercial and banking empire that dominates through globalization of trade and finance.

bush_cheney2004 · September 23, 2015

True....America has prospered far more than Great Britain's other devil spawn...Canada. That's why the U.S. has 10X the population.

Argus · September 23, 2015

Early in the Afghan mission, all the parties agreed to send troops, as did the majority of citizens, except Eyeball and a few others......So off we went to War, but as it grew unpopular, the citizens failed in all it's responsibilities.....

When it started the Liberals were in power, with the Conservatives being the opposition. Naturally, the Conservatives would have supported this. What changed? The election put the Conservatives in power. Suddenly, the Liberals started criticizing everything which was going on in Afghanistan, hoping to embarrass the government. Joined by the NDP, they made a huge fuss over, not how WE treated prisoners, but how their own government treated them when we handed them over. How long did those accusations and demands for royal commissions go on? A year or more? Every hint of any kind of bad treatment of prisoners by the CAF, every mistake, every problem with local governance or corruption, brought the opposition to their feet, waving their arms all red faced and accusing.

So the opposition to the war was largely orchestrated by the Liberal party, with some assistance from the NDP, who are, by nature, anti-militaristic to begin with.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Argus