ToadBrother Posted September 16, 2015 Report Posted September 16, 2015 I thought it was quite well-reasoned. No surprise you decided not to counter it with anything but the usual leftist kneejerk insults. "Well reasoned" in your books clearly means "scratches my itch." Quote
Argus Posted September 16, 2015 Report Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) This is a generalization not supported by pooled crime statistics and other measures compared to other domestic and immigrant groups. Somalians have not been a differently "huge problem" in the U.S. when compared to other groups. Example: http://irregulartimes.com/2015/01/31/after-somali-immigrants-arrived-in-minneapolis-did-crime-change-differently-than-in-other-minnesota-cities-fact-check/ Your reporter uses some fairly specious reasoning there to suggest Somalians haven't influenced the crime rate. That a small percentage of the city is now Somali, yet the crime rate hasn't gone up is not exactly proof that Somalis do not commit a dispropoprtionate amount of crime. We don't keep stats here because liberals are afraid of what they'd say, but everyone in Ottawa knows how Somalis have affected the crime rate here. Edited September 16, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 16, 2015 Report Posted September 16, 2015 "Well reasoned" in your books clearly means "scratches my itch." It means it makes sense. Your positon, on the other hand, is pure leftist kant. Once, people distrusted immigrants just cuz. Therefore, anyone who questions the wisdom of immigration, or a certain type of immigrants, is wrong. Period. Forever. Must be relaxing to hold positions you don't have to put any thought into. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
PrimeNumber Posted September 16, 2015 Report Posted September 16, 2015 It's all good. I pay a guy to take care of it for me. Ain't capitalism great? Now your analogy is just falling apart.... so your willing to pay people money to try and eradicate Muslims for the rest of your life? Well that's pretty stubborn seeing as how it won't work. Quote “Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find your way around or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.”― Bruce Lee
Argus Posted September 16, 2015 Report Posted September 16, 2015 Now your analogy is just falling apart.... so your willing to pay people money to try and eradicate Muslims for the rest of your life? Well that's pretty stubborn seeing as how it won't work. First, I never said I wanted to 'eradicate Muslims'. Second, sure it would. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
69cat Posted September 16, 2015 Report Posted September 16, 2015 Fair enough toadbrother, should i say liberal/ndp/democrat to be more inclusive. Regarding people on life support, where exactly do you draw the line. Is your opinion that no one able to live without life support should not be put on life support to begin with and so avoid the term "suicide someone else" because they have already passed on, or is it your position that person should be kept on machines indefinitely, and as their condition degrades we should add more machine and technology, and when that fails we can blame the health care system for not doing enough or not having the funding to provide the nextmlevel of technology to keep that person on life support. Ultimately the goal is to never have to make that big decision. I guess i dont see it as killing some off when one has already done everything WITHIN REASON (your definition added here) to extend their life already. Kind of like you cant kill someone who is already dead. But no doubt technology will evolve to the point where a heart beat is no longer required and only brain synapses firing will define "life", but where do you stand now. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 Your reporter uses some fairly specious reasoning there to suggest Somalians haven't influenced the crime rate. That a small percentage of the city is now Somali, yet the crime rate hasn't gone up is not exactly proof that Somalis do not commit a dispropoprtionate amount of crime. The same arguments are made about other "visible minorities", a Canadian term that is racist in and of itself. Somali emigres are faced with the same challenges and opportunities as any other immigrant group, and some will commit crimes just like native born citizens. They do the crappy jobs for low pay that many Americans or Canadians will not do. We don't keep stats here because liberals are afraid of what they'd say, but everyone in Ottawa knows how Somalis have affected the crime rate here. Another topic....but I learned long ago around here that many members just use American data anyway for all kinds of things. "It's just easier". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
G Huxley Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) So you got nothing. Okay. This is tinfoil hat stuff and I'm not interested in it. No tinfoil involved the man is an intellectual giant: Steve Coll (born October 8, 1958) is an American journalist, author, and business executive. He is currently the dean of Columbia Journalism School. He is a former president and CEO of New America Foundation, and has been a staff writer for The New Yorker. He is the recipient of two Pulitzer Prize Awards, two Overseas Press Club Awards, a PEN American Center John Kenneth Galbraith Award, an Arthur Ross Book Award, a Livingston Award, a Robert F. Kennedy Journalism Award, a Financial Times and Goldman Sachs Business Book of the Year Award, and the Lionel Gelber Prize. In 2012, he was elected to the Pulitzer Prize Board. Awards: 1990: Pulitzer Prize for Explanatory Reporting (co-winner with David A. Vise)[1] 1991: Livingston Award for International Reporting for "Crisis and Change in South Asia", The Washington Post (winner)[11] 2000: Robert F. Kennedy Journalism Award for "Peace Without Justice: A Journey to the Wounded Heart of Africa", The Washington Post (1st Prize: International Print) 2000: Ed Cunningham Award for "Peace Without Justice: A Journey to the Wounded Heart of Africa", The Washington Post[12] 2004: Lionel Gelber Prize for Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001 (winner) 2004: Cornelius Ryan Award for Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001 (winner)[13] 2005: Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction for Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001 (winner)[14] 2005: Arthur Ross Book Award for Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001 (winner) 2008: National Book Critics Circle Award for The Bin Ladens: An Arabian Family in the American Century (finalist)[15] 2009: PEN/John Kenneth Galbraith Award for The Bin Ladens: An Arabian Family in the American Century (winner) 2012: Financial Times and Goldman Sachs Business Book of the Year Award for Private Empire (winner)[16] 2012: National Book Critics Circle Award for Private Empire (finalist)[17] As for you, you're someone putting your hands over your ears and humming so you don't have to learn anything. Ignorance is Strength right? Edited September 17, 2015 by G Huxley Quote
Argus Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 The same arguments are made about other "visible minorities", Only some of them. Curious, that. I mean, given all such arguments must be merely based on bigotry and racism, right? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 Only some of them. Curious, that. I mean, given all such arguments must be merely based on bigotry and racism, right? No, not all. Language laws, religion, sexual orientation, etc. are also used. It's election season, so anything will do. The data must exist somewhere in Canada...no need to reach across the border for dubious examples. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
hitops Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 Thank you for proving my point. Your claims about Muslims are no different than the views of Catholics put forward in Protestant England after the Gunpowder Plot. Same insanely broad generalizations, same sort of bigotry. Those aren't my claims, they are the claims of Islam's founder who explicitly endorsed them. Quote
hitops Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) This is a generalization not supported by pooled crime statistics and other measures compared to other domestic and immigrant groups. Somalians have not been a differently "huge problem" in the U.S. when compared to other groups. Example: http://irregulartimes.com/2015/01/31/after-somali-immigrants-arrived-in-minneapolis-did-crime-change-differently-than-in-other-minnesota-cities-fact-check/ I those nice tables, but they don't really answer the question. They show overall crime rates and rates of Somali population. Somalis are only 3% of the population, and the majority of US states have overall steady declines in crime rates of the last 30 years or so, so it does not tell us much that MN also has a declining rate. In those same tables, it shows that other states have lower or higher declines, but most are declining. Actually the crime rates in the most of the western world including the US and Canada, show gradual declines over the last 20 years. Few conclusions can be drawn apart from wider factors affecting the developed world. This is the same false argument used by pro-carry advocates in the US, who point to increased firearms and declining crime. They always fail to explain that crime declined at similar rates in most states regardless of carry laws or not, and even in states that increased their laws, and even in other countries. This points to larger cultural factors. There are many statement from Minneapolis/St. Cloud police about Somali gang activity, and increased in gang activity focuses within that population. One such article is here: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-06-Somali-gangs_N.htm Edited September 17, 2015 by hitops Quote
dre Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 We don't keep stats here because liberals are afraid of what they'd say, but everyone in Ottawa knows how Somalis have affected the crime rate here. Ahhhh yes the old "everyone knows" fallacy. And in case you accidentally missed it... Theres been a Conservative majority for most of the last decade. If they wanted to keep crime stats for immigrants, race, nationality, religion, or whatever else they could have done so. But go ahead... keep blaming everything on the imaginary boogey man inside your head. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Michael Hardner Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 I those nice tables, but they don't really answer the question. They show overall crime rates and rates of Somali population. Somalis are only 3% of the population, and the majority of US states have overall steady declines in crime rates of the last 30 years or so, so it does not tell us much that MN also has a declining rate. In those same tables, it shows that other states have lower or higher declines, but most are declining. I don't think you read the whole thing. Minneapolis is just middle of the pack when it comes to crime rate declines, which I think answers the question. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 Ahhhh yes the old "everyone knows" fallacy. BC (and America) comes to the rescue here with some real numbers. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Shady Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 It seems as though more and more people are coming back to voting for the Conservatives. Their summer flings with the other parties seems to be ending. Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 I get the feeling that federal politics matter only to a dwindling cone of older Canadians, and the arguments are over relatively small differences in policy. Quote
hitops Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) I don't think you read the whole thing. Minneapolis is just middle of the pack when it comes to crime rate declines, which I think answers the question. Well no, it just shows that Minneapolis has a declining rate consistent with the average. It has been declining for some time, just like most other states. Even with 10x the crime rate, the relatively small Somali population would not change that overall trend. To put it another way, you could actually take any group in the entire US who immigrated during that time, point to the declining crime rate in any state they came to, and claim that this group does not have a higher crime rate. I'm sure you're smart enough to know why that argument would not be valid. What we want to know is what is the Somali crime rate? In Denmark they collect stats on Somalis, and they have a crime rate roughly 10x higher than the average. Somalia itself is one of the most dangerous, least educated, least developed place on the planet. It's not much of a leap, given than MN police have had to specifically focus efforts on Somali gang activity since 2000 increasingly, that Somalis have a higher crime rate. Edited September 17, 2015 by hitops Quote
Michael Hardner Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 Well no, it just shows that Minneapolis has a declining rate consistent with the average. It has been declining for some time, just like most other states. Even with 10x the crime rate, the relatively small Somali population would not change that overall trend. The important thing to remember is that the article was written to counter certain assertions. From the article the assertions were/are: “Violent crimes against Americans are sure to rise as the number of Somalis increase…. As the number of Somalis increase the crime rate will increase and the city and state will be bankrupted from all the foreign welfare freeloaders and welfare cheats.” “After the Somalis arrived in Minneapolis, violence in the city intensified and the crime rate exploded.” To put it another way, you could actually take any group in the entire US who immigrated during that time, point to the declining crime rate in any state they came to, and claim that this group does not have a higher crime rate. I'm sure you're smart enough to know why that argument would not be valid. I don't agree. The group would have an impact on crime rate, which would be independent of factors that affect all US cities. The point being that there are a high number of Somalis in Minneapolis and yet its crime rate decline was typical. If the crime rate fell at a slower rate then you might have something to investigate with regards to factors there. What we want to know is what is the Somali crime rate? In Denmark they collect stats on Somalis, and they have a crime rate roughly 10x higher than the average. Somalia itself is one of the most dangerous, least educated, least developed place on the planet. It's not much of a leap, given than MN police have had to specifically focus efforts on Somali gang activity since 2000 increasingly, that Somalis have a higher crime rate. Ok, give the cite and we can look at that too. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
ToadBrother Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 It seems as though more and more people are coming back to voting for the Conservatives. Their summer flings with the other parties seems to be ending. Really? Can you show where any poll says that? All I see is three parties orbiting 30%. Quote
PIK Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 Somalis gangs are a problem now in Ottawa. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
hitops Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) The important thing to remember is that the article was written to counter certain assertions. From the article the assertions were/are: “Violent crimes against Americans are sure to rise as the number of Somalis increase…. As the number of Somalis increase the crime rate will increase and the city and state will be bankrupted from all the foreign welfare freeloaders and welfare cheats.” “After the Somalis arrived in Minneapolis, violence in the city intensified and the crime rate exploded.” That may be true, but the link was posted to counter my own assertion of Somalis causing a problem, which is not the same thing. I don't agree. The group would have an impact on crime rate, which would be independent of factors that affect all US cities. Right but that impact might not be visible if there are even stronger forces pulling the statistics for the population in the other direction. I see this all the time in the world of medicine, where the effect of one variable get blunted or hidden in the context of others. There are ways to tease that out, but I'm not aware if the US government does that. The point being that there are a high number of Somalis in Minneapolis and yet its crime rate decline was typical. If the crime rate fell at a slower rate then you might have something to investigate with regards to factors there. There are not a high number, there are a high number relative to other MN and US cities. The absolute number is about 3% in Minneapolis according to those tables, and 1% or less in most other MN cities. I would not call that high. Certainly not high enough to affect the statistics for the other 99% in a meaningful way. The other problem is crime rates are changing (going down). If they were static over decades, we might have a chance at seeing an effect from an especially criminal 1%. Ok, give the cite and we can look at that too. https://themuslimissue.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/denmark_somali_rape_1313962.pdf This is found via a fringe website, but the report is source material from statistics Denmark. Here is the source website, but I can't navigate it since I don't read Danish: http://www.justitsministeriet.dk/generelt/english Edited September 17, 2015 by hitops Quote
Michael Hardner Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 Somalis gangs are a problem now in Ottawa. Cite please. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 That may be true, but the link was posted to counter my own assertion of Somalis causing a problem, which is not the same thing. Ok, I checked and you're right. However your assertion was: "Somalians have been a huge problem in the US," If you assert that 3% of the population of Minneapolis now commits crime at 10X the usual rate, then we're talking about a 30% impact over the whole population which you would assume to see in these numbers. Right but that impact might not be visible if there are even stronger forces pulling the statistics for the population in the other direction. I see this all the time in the world of medicine, where the effect of one variable get blunted or hidden in the context of others. There are ways to tease that out, but I'm not aware if the US government does that. But those forces would have to pull ONLY on Minneapolis not on the others to counter the 30%, you see ? If the 'stronger forces' are happening everywhere then Minneapolis' crime numbers would stand out far more than they do today. There are not a high number, there are a high number relative to other MN and US cities. The absolute number is about 3% in Minneapolis according to those tables, and 1% or less in most other MN cities. I would not call that high. Certainly not high enough to affect the statistics for the other 99% in a meaningful way. At 10X the rate, then they would. And your assertion that they are a "huge" problem. Is it a huge problem or not ? What does "huge" mean ? Does it mean that they have a higher crime rate than other groups ? Does it mean they have 10X the crime rate ? The other problem is crime rates are changing (going down). If they were static over decades, we might have a chance at seeing an effect from an especially criminal 1%. You don't seem to be getting that the reporting of crime rates for other cities in MN addresses that. The other cities act as a control group, in that the other factors would be at play in all cities listed but the Somali immigrant effect would be limited to Minneapolis. Again, there's nothing remarkable about Minneapolis either way when compared to the other cities. This is found via a fringe website, but the report is source material from statistics Denmark. Ok, but there's no report at the English link.... still need a cite for that. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 17, 2015 Report Posted September 17, 2015 ......The point being that there are a high number of Somalis in Minneapolis and yet its crime rate decline was typical. If the crime rate fell at a slower rate then you might have something to investigate with regards to factors there. Investigate yes...but again, no broad conclusions as were made above. Somali Americans commit crimes for the same reasons that other Americans citizens and immigrants commit crimes, including immigrants from Canada. The U.S. media focus on El Shabab (and ISIL) recruiting probably distorts the reality on the ground, where most ex-Somalis get up and go to work or school each day, same as other Americans. More remarkable to me was any attempt to create and associate false crime rate assertions for American immigrants to demonstrate what would/could happen in Canada should more immigrants/refugees be landed. File this one in the typical one-way cross-border gaze folder. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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