cybercoma Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 I'd call them barbaric.Sure, but the point is that people don't. They'll say it's disgusting or something. "Barbaric" is not a word that's used to describe white middle-class men killing their wives or children for perceived slights. You can't ignore the baggage that the word "barbaric" carries with it. It has a history of being used in ways and contexts relating to "outsiders" or people that aren't part of whatever reference group the person using the word comes from. By a strictly definitional use of the word, yes, you'd call them barbaric. What they did is barbaric. If someone asked you if it was barbaric, you would agree as you have here. The thing is, it's not a word most people would just pull out to describe their own people, even when they do barbaric things. To fully elaborate, barbaric obviously comes from the word barbarian. The root of the word is barbaros, meaning foreign in Greek. Barbarian by its very definition is someone who is "uncivilized" and in the context of early Greece that meant not part of the city states--in other words an outsider or foreigner. The word barbarian and therefore barbaric through their etymology and by definition are bigoted. Well so what? Butchering your family is barbaric is probably what you're saying. And you're absolutely right! Barbaric though is a term that distinguishes an outsider or someone from a different culture. You're saying their culture and nationality are the reason for this act and that distinguishes them from our culture and nationality. But is that the case? Domestic homicide and domestic violence are serious problems in Canada. It's not something reserved to other cultures. We whitewash our violence while highlighting the violence of others. That's why the term "barbaric" is inappropriate. It comes from a place of bigotry that ignores the fact that our own culture is also violent and disgusting at times.
cybercoma Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) It's a simple matter really - everyone should be against honour killings.Who's FOR honour killings exactly? Can you point me to that post? Because I'd like to deride and mock that person. Edited September 9, 2015 by cybercoma
cybercoma Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 I didn't know I was talking to Trudeau when I was asking for a simple denunciation.Do you really need an explicit denunciation, as though anyone here supports honour killings?
waldo Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 I can speak out against honour killings and all forms of domestic violence without qualification. I'll now await your clear, unequivocal position. you can keep waiting... I most certainly won't respond to your strawman, particularly when, as I said, you used it to... and I'm going to state purposely now... to falsely portray my statements and position within this thread. As I continue to state, and you continue to ignore, each time you keep playing this out, I will simply provide you my own strawman as a response to yours. Again, why are you attaching barbarism to a culture rather than to the acts stated within that statement from the Harper Conservative brochure/pamphlet? Why are you doing that?
cybercoma Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 What is your position on honour killings? We can move on from there.What kind of silly little ego trip is this? Give me a break. You wonder why waldo responds with derisiveness.
Smallc Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 What kind of silly little ego trip is this? Give me a break. You wonder why waldo responds with derisiveness. But that's exactly my point - he doesn't respond or take a position. It's not difficult to debate you, as I can tell what your position and end game are, no matter if I agree or not. Waldo can't say the words and so I have no idea where he stands or of the sincerity of his argument.
Smallc Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 you can keep waiting... I most certainly won't respond to your strawman, particularly when, as I said, you used it to... and I'm going to state purposely now... to falsely portray my statements and position within this thread. As I continue to state, and you continue to ignore, each time you keep playing this out, I will simply provide you my own strawman as a response to yours. Again, why are you attaching barbarism to a culture rather than to the acts stated within that statement from the Harper Conservative brochure/pamphlet? Why are you doing that? The acts are barbaric, and so is the culture that allows them.
waldo Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 But that's exactly my point - he doesn't respond or take a position. It's not difficult to debate you, as I can tell what your position and end game are, no matter if I agree or not. Waldo can't say the words and so I have no idea where he stands or of the sincerity of his argument. my position is clear and unequivocal and on full display throughout this thread... start with the second post in this thread as a/the first response to the nonsense OP... it's a position you bastardized and falsely portrayed with your purposeful strawman.
waldo Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 The acts are barbaric, and so is the culture that allows them. like I said before... the last time your true colours came forward... don't bother with your shuffle-dance routine suggesting you can't see yourself voting for Harper Conservatives this go-around. There's nothing at all progressive in your views to suggest your vote belongs anywhere other than where you've parked it!
cybercoma Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 why are you attaching barbarism to a culture rather than to the acts stated within that statement from the Harper Conservative brochure/pamphlet? Why are you doing that?It is attached to the practices. It's "barbaric cultural practices," right? The problem is that they're attaching the practices to the culture, as though those practices don't occur here. A culture chooses someone for their kids to marry and it's barbaric. Our culture doesn't let our daughters date black men or poor men and otherwise tells our daughters who they can and cannot date. Shaping their choices that way is not barbaric though, despite being another way of arranging for your child to marry the person you find acceptable and not who they personally decide to marry. Honour killings are a barbaric cultural practice, but when a guy in NB hides in the woods murders his daughter and her boyfriend because he didn't want her seeing him, we don't peg that on our culture and call it barbaric. We just say he's a maniac or otherwise make false assumptions about mental illness. People can't see that the practices exist between cultures and that there's more variation within each of our cultures than between them. That's what makes the "barbaric cultural practices" line offensive because it makes it seem like the violent acts are exclusive to that culture when that's far from the truth.
Argus Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 Honour killing is called domestic violence in the western part of this world. There is no difference and Canada has plenty of marital killings. Do you have some examples where entire families got together to murder their wives or daughters in this part of the world? Other than Muslims, I mean? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 Think of it however suits you just don't use that language in a document you will hand to all immigrants. Because we wouldn't want immigrants to think we have disrespect for those who believe in honor killings and genital mutilation? Do you think honor killings and genital mutilation are barbaric? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 They are exactly the same thing God, what ignorance. Partners killing each other in western society are generally isolated losers on the edge, driven by desperation and rage. Honor killing is the cold blooded, thoughtful determination that some female has damaged the family's honor in some way. It could be because she married the wrong person or married without permission. It could be something as simple as she likes the wrong music and likes to dance. It could be as little as she was seen walking alone and unchaperoned with a male, or that she is too independent minded. Most of the victims are not wives, but daughters and sisters. And often the decision to murder them is made by a number of family members, sometimes a dozen or more, who act in concert. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 Because we wouldn't want immigrants to think we have disrespect for those who believe in honor killings and genital mutilation? Do you think honor killings and genital mutilation are barbaric? No, because I wouldn't want immigrants to think we are a nation of bigots.
Argus Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 I've already stated my case o this. It's offensive language to put into a government document, for no tangible effective purpose. Why? Who would it offend? And why would you care? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 Which is what Trudeau was suggesting. Then he was appallingly ignorant. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 No, because I wouldn't want immigrants to think we are a nation of bigots. So you don't think honor killings and genital mutilation are barbaric because... because what you think is based on whether that would offend someone!? Really!? You're saying you're just a quivering, empty shell of a man who bases his own judgement on what others might think? That's pretty damned contemptible. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 you can keep waiting... So you're afraid to say you don't think genital mutilation and honor killings are barbaric? "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 So you don't think honor killings and genital mutilation are barbaric because... because what you think is based on whether that would offend someone!? Really!? You're saying you're just a quivering, empty shell of a man who bases his own judgement on what others might think? That's pretty damned contemptible. I think quivering empty shells type men tend to be the ones who help generate that bigotry image I spoke of.
Argus Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 I think quivering empty shells type men tend to be the ones who help generate that bigotry image I spoke of. You're so desperately afraid of offending some minority you can't even bring yourself to judge the mutilation and rape of little girls as barbaric! I, on the other hand, could not possibly care less what your ilk think of my perfectly sound judgement. I also don't give a damn what immigrants or ethnics think of it. If any of them want to defend the practices let them go somewhere it's accepted, like in the middle east and north africa. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
On Guard for Thee Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 You're so desperately afraid of offending some minority you can't even bring yourself to judge the mutilation and rape of little girls as barbaric! I, on the other hand, could not possibly care less what your ilk think of my perfectly sound judgement. I also don't give a damn what immigrants or ethnics think of it. If any of them want to defend the practices let them go somewhere it's accepted, like in the middle east and north africa. The only "sound" I hear from you is that quivering you speak of.
Argus Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 The only "sound" I hear from you is that quivering you speak of. Hey, I'm not the one too gutless to condemn child rape and honor killing lest he offend someone... "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
waldo Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 So you're afraid to say you don't think genital mutilation and honor killings are barbaric? member Smallc's strawman has more panache than yours!
cybercoma Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 Hey, I'm not the one too gutless to condemn child rape and honor killing lest he offend someone...Not gutless, but brainless enough to imply that anyone accepts it.
Argus Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 member Smallc's strawman has more panache than yours! You're as desperately afraid of condemning it as he is. You know what, if any immigrant or ethnic is 'offended' by my terming honor killing, genital mutilation and child rape as 'barbaric' then not only do I not CARE, but I think they should be forcibly removed from Canada forthwith. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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