ReeferMadness Posted September 2, 2015 Report Posted September 2, 2015 That includes the public service unions, who will demand a big pay raise and benefits increase under an NDP government to keep believing. The last time an NDP leader tried to move the party rightward the unions were very unhappy. They'll bite their tongues to get Harper out, but afterwards they're going to be a lot more demanding. Hyperbole. Everyone will be watching for that and Mulcair won't deliver it. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
socialist Posted September 2, 2015 Author Report Posted September 2, 2015 That includes the public service unions, who will demand a big pay raise and benefits increase under an NDP government to keep believing. The last time an NDP leader tried to move the party rightward the unions were very unhappy. They'll bite their tongues to get Harper out, but afterwards they're going to be a lot more demanding. You make an excellent point. Public sector unions will benefit the most from an NDP. I'm not against unions but I grow tired of my dues paying for campaigning, not to mention the fat cats who travel and eat lobster on their expense accounts. Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
Scotty Posted September 2, 2015 Report Posted September 2, 2015 Why do you hate the working class so much? Who do you think spends money to "stimulate the economy?" It certainly isn't businesses who receive corporate welfare and sit on "stockpiles of dead money," in Mark Carney's words. Public servants are not "the working class". They're the petty bourgeois, and very comfortably ensconced within the upper ranges of society. The people who could be called working class are the ones working for low wages and no benefits. None of them are public servants. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted September 2, 2015 Report Posted September 2, 2015 Hyperbole. Everyone will be watching for that and Mulcair won't deliver it. Mulcair will have a lot of left wing zealots in his party who, if he's to be believed, will be very angry about his turning the party towards the centre. A lot of them are in the public service unions, where it's okay to be a zealot since you suffer no financial penalty for it. They can be placated, to some extent by the NDP removing the restrictions Harper put on raises, and dropping the tory plans to cut back benefits. And it's not like the majority of the NDP aren't extremely sympathetic to union members to begin with. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
cybercoma Posted September 2, 2015 Report Posted September 2, 2015 Public servants are not "the working class". They're the petty bourgeois, and very comfortably ensconced within the upper ranges of society. The people who could be called working class are the ones working for low wages and no benefits. None of them are public servants. Maybe I'll come back later and make up my own definitions to suit my argument too. Quote
ReeferMadness Posted September 2, 2015 Report Posted September 2, 2015 Mulcair will have a lot of left wing zealots in his party who, if he's to be believed, will be very angry about his turning the party towards the centre. And where else are they going to go? They'll be in exactly the same spot as Harper's social conservatives or, for that matter, conservatives who actually believed Harper was going to clean up Ottawa. They'll be disappointed and a few might elect to not vote but the overwhelming majority will grumble but stay the course. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Topaz Posted September 2, 2015 Report Posted September 2, 2015 One of the things people need to price into an NDP government is the big pay and benefit increases the federal civil service unions will get. The labour unions, especially the rich public service unions play a major role within the NDP and have a quarter of the delegates to every convention. They will expect a big reward from any NDP government, and that will mean major bucks. I'm pretty sure the civil service employees or maybe it was the managers, got a pay hike right after the last election, so that nothing new. Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 That is not right or fair. People should be able to vote the way they want, not be told to vote a certain way. I think people will vote how they want, though, in the end, no matter what I say. Or maybe I have powers I am unaware of? So, speaking strictly for me, getting Stephen Joseph Harper's smirking mug off my TV screen matters more than anything else. I was sick of Chrétien by the end but SJH revolted me from day one. I can't find one person in my constituency who will actually defend him. The local Conservatives start shuffling and looking at their shoes when the subject of him comes up. They know how unpopular he is down here in Newfoundland. The local PC MHA is running federally for Mr. Harper's outfit and he will be royally thrashed as he knows full well. In this constituency, the chance of a Conservative sneaking in through a split in the anti-SJH vote is mercifully slim. Quote
Evening Star Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 And where else are they going to go? They'll be in exactly the same spot as Harper's social conservatives or, for that matter, conservatives who actually believed Harper was going to clean up Ottawa. They'll be disappointed and a few might elect to not vote but the overwhelming majority will grumble but stay the course. Um, aren't you planning to vote Green yourself? Quote
ReeferMadness Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Um, aren't you planning to vote Green yourself? Yes, of course. But talk to die-hard NDPers about the Green Party. They often describe us as neo-conservatives with composters. Some of the most negative things that are said about the Green Party come from NDP supporters, in my experience. :rolleyes: Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Yes, of course. But talk to die-hard NDPers about the Green Party. They often describe us as neo-conservatives with composters. Some of the most negative things that are said about the Green Party come from NDP supporters, in my experience. :rolleyes: The narcissism of small differences. Talk to the PFJ about the JPF and you'll get the same response. Quote
Scotty Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 I'm pretty sure the civil service employees or maybe it was the managers, got a pay hike right after the last election, so that nothing new. They got 1% and a cutback in pensions and sick pay. Pretty sure that isn't going to cut it with an NDP government in power. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
socialist Posted September 7, 2015 Author Report Posted September 7, 2015 Where's our media? Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
Argus Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 It strikes me that you can easily see disaster where it harms the Tories. To my mind anything that weakens the big three is good even with the infinitesimal possibility of a few Canadian Nazi seats. It would harm the NDP too. What I don't like seeing harmed is the middle of the road consensus. The fringe parties which can be put into the House won't care about that. They'll only care about their own thing. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 Doubt it. NDP has a core of true believers, much like the Conservatives. That core of true believers isn't going to be happy if Mulcair turns out to be an apostate. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 Hyperbole. Everyone will be watching for that and Mulcair won't deliver it. The unions are his base of power. The public service unions in particular. I was a shop steward with PSAC and I can tell you they expect to be controlling the government if the NDP win. There is no way the cuts Harper has made to the size of the public service or to their wages and benefits will be allowed to stand, and they fully expect a big chunk of those jobs which have been privatized will be taken back into the public sector. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 And where else are they going to go? They'll be in exactly the same spot as Harper's social conservatives You forget that union activists have a mandatory chunk of the voting power within the NDP by that party's own constitution. They can make major trouble for Mulcair, too much for him to ignore. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 I'm pretty sure the civil service employees or maybe it was the managers, got a pay hike right after the last election, so that nothing new. 1% along with a big cut to benefits. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) I think people will vote how they want, though, in the end, no matter what I say. Or maybe I have powers I am unaware of? So, speaking strictly for me, getting Stephen Joseph Harper's smirking mug off my TV screen matters more than anything else. Well thats an intelligent way to look at things. Who cares about what the party's policies are or what damage the other parties can do to Canada, as long as the PM is someone you think is pretty. I guarantee you that everything you loath about Harper will be exactly the same in Mulcair. Edited September 8, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Evening Star Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 You forget that union activists have a mandatory chunk of the voting power within the NDP by that party's own constitution. They can make major trouble for Mulcair, too much for him to ignore. Is this still true? I thought they had changed to a one-vote-per-member policy some time ago. Quote
eyeball Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 It would harm the NDP too. What I don't like seeing harmed is the middle of the road consensus. The fringe parties which can be put into the House won't care about that. They'll only care about their own thing. And the less they'll be able to do anything about it if they don't co-operate. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
cannuck Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) Having been kind of busy trying to earn a living the last few months, haven't checked in here. So, I actually read through this ENTIRE thread in one sitting. My takeaway? Other than a few posts starting around 263, there has been zero discussion of any issues that are fundamentally key to the future of this (or any other) country. I am one of those people who has been pretty deep into the partisan scene, and long ago realized that it is a dead end in a big way. Doesn't matter WHAT party you stuff into office, we have a system of rule-by-special-interest that defeats the interests of the people the day cabinet is sworn in. Representative government is the ONLY way (outside of a benevolent dictatorship) to reverse this problem. Instead of substance, our campaigners are fronting the usual bunch of relatively insignificant diversionary policy issues, all just to get into the chair and dance to the tune of their masters. The use of "tommy" is inappropriate, I agree. This moniker belongs exclusively to "Tommy the Commie" who has rightfully earned his place in history. Of course, the fact that after embracing the Regina Manifesto and seeing much of its rhetoric turn into reality in this country, he went into his "retirement" job as a director of Husky Oil, so we can clearly see how the new party should have been called "New Hypocrites". Worth noting in the 300+ area, the question of NDP and unions comes up, few ever remembering that the NDP IS a trade union (formally the amalgamation of the CCF and the CLC). Now, while speaking of Tommy the Commie, it is pretty important to remember that the person who moved this country further to the left than any other in history carried a Communist party card when he studied at the Sorbonne. Thusly, I am confused when someone today tries to tell me there is any difference between the Drivel Party and the New Hypocrites. Sliding over the the "right", the usual Nazi BS got thrown around. How curious it is to be applied to the National Socialist Party, that was a genuine Labour party to the core. It does, however, serve well to demonstrate how far wrong ANY philosophy can go if the people let it. So does that make a Harper Conservative some kind of good thing? Well, nobody in that caucus would know a genuine conservative if one bit him (or her) on the arse. So, conservatism (implying the righteous right) is some kind of solution? If you look South of the 40th from whence the archetypical "right" emanates, instead of some kind of genuine democratic process, we see instead a very deep version of aforementioned rule-by-special-interest. AND: the flavour of the century is to ensconce Casino Capitalism as the de facto religion of the economic West. Until the incredibly ignorant populace, led by incredibly ignorant academia can get their head around such things as truly representative government (devoid of partisan power, if not representation), and learn that an economy hasn't got a hope in hell of sustaining when the vast majority of activity is purely speculative and almost totally devoid of creation of any wealth, we are doomed to argue endlessly and pointlessly about the silly things that really make little difference in anything come every Federal election. Now you have guessed it: I really don't want to vote for ANY of the choices we have in any partisan way. I will simply try to determine which candidate in my riding seems most honest and able to represent my interests in Ottawa. THAT is what IMHO any and all politicians should be required and restricted to doing. You don't want to know what I think of oil sands, child care and a bunch of the other crap, because it sure as hell won't give anyone here the warm fuzzies. Edited September 8, 2015 by cannuck Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 Well thats an intelligent way to look at things. Who cares about what the party's policies are or what damage the other parties can do to Canada, as long as the PM is someone you think is pretty.I guarantee you that everything you loath about Harper will be exactly the same in Mulcair. People in the Conservative bubble just can't see how alienating Harper is. I don't believe Mulcair will be as bad. And it is Harper's policies that make me feel this way. I have voted both PC and Liberal so I am not a left wing voter at all. Harper's autocratic tendencies are deeply disturbing to me. Quote
PIK Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 Sow what about that NDP MP that made the governmnet look bad in the worlds eye for saying that he personally delivered a letter to bring in that boy, and it turned out he lied thru his teeth. That right there is a firing offence. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
Argus Posted September 8, 2015 Report Posted September 8, 2015 People in the Conservative bubble just can't see how alienating Harper is. I don't believe Mulcair will be as bad. And it is Harper's policies that make me feel this way. I have voted both PC and Liberal so I am not a left wing voter at all. Harper's autocratic tendencies are deeply disturbing to me. I don't like Harper either, but Chretien had the same autocratic tendencies, and so does Mulcair. And Mulcair will have to clamp down HARD on a caucus full of newbies, many of whom are wild eyed, anti-capitalist zealots who won't be happy if he doesn't start punishing big business, the oil industry and rich people. I also expect huge tax increases under Mulcair. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
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