Ontario's ORPP - What's Your Opinion?

[drummindiver]

Some reasons ORPP plan is less than useless.

Even if yo agree with expanding CPP, does 2/3 of provinxes representing 2/3 of the population agree?

http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/jack-mintz-kill-ontarios-pension-plan

[drummindiver]

While off topic from ORPP, apparently our CPP does not ned expanding or top up.

Number 13

http://www.osfi-bsif.gc.ca/Eng/oca-bac/as-ea/Pages/default.aspx

Edited August 12, 2015 by drummindiver

[waldo]

While off topic from ORPP, apparently our CPP does not ned expanding or top up.

at it's current benefits level... do you actually know anyone whose fixed income is tied only to CPP/OAS, hey? That's the intent behind an initiative like ORPP... to give seniors more dignity in their retirement! What a concept. By the by, if CPP is just so peachy fine to you, why did Harper float the voluntary option?

[Ash74]

Harper refuses to do anything to seriously reform CPP... and he presumes to interject himself in the design/intent another province has to step-in and fill the vacancy left by Harper's unwillingness to do anything!

and if he had Wynne would say he is not doing enough.

There are so many details being left out of this because Wynne wanted the ORPP as a weapon against Harper but was not really ready to announce.

Or she is keeping the real purpose for the money quiet so JT does not get the blame.

[Boges]

McWynnty doesn't know how much it'll cost to administer the program. That's why they want the Feds to deal with it (a la the HST)

I think it's a game of Chicken, Ontario doesn't want to go it on their own here. They're praying a party that will administer the plan will get elected, otherwise it'll likely be a Boondoggle.

[Big Guy]

Some arguements never change:

"Mandatory Retirement Income Scheme
One debate concerning the CPP centres on its mandatory provisions. Under the CPP, all employees and employers are obligated to pay into the system at rates set by government. Some critics, however, have argued that individuals and businesses should be allowed the flexibility to opt out of the government plan and design their own. Such positions tend to be grounded in more free-market conceptions of pensions, where citizens are free to choose their own level of retirement savings and the retirement products they wish to pay into. For those who support this view, mandatory government schemes represent “inefficient” or “coercive” programs which deny individuals this choice. During the late 1990s, when the federal government was addressing the issue of the CPP’s financial sustainability, the Reform Party of Canada (later the Canadian Alliance Party) advocated some measure of an opt-out clause based on these grounds."

From:

http://mapleleafweb.com/features/canada-pension-plan-overview-history-and-debates#canada

[overthere]

Ontario is so buried in debt that Wynne is running out of options to raise cash.

It is hard to imagine that the ORPP will be solvent in a couple of decades if the principal is spent now. Oh well, another horrible legacy of our stupidity to be passed to our children...

[Argus]

$1500 a year for forty years, collectible when you are 65, if you have contributed for those forty years. Net you get is 6 grand a year. This is not a tax, like mcGuintys health tax of a thou a year that wasn't a tax. Can I get a nuclear face palm? I am soooo glad I have a defined benefit plan and am escaping ontario when I retire.

Don't forget that its taxable, and if you're poorer, it will wind up diminishing what you would otherwise get from the OAS and GIS.

[Ash74]

It is just going to be another tax. We are going to find in 2022 when Wynne at the age of 69 will likely be on some board saying the person after her screwed it up and it was Steven Harper that made it so their was not money after Mike Harris left her stuck with a bill that Dalton McGuinty had to pay so it was not her fault.

[PIK]

Her minister was on CFRA at lunch, she pretty well showed they have no idea what they are doing.

[socialist]

at it's current benefits level... do you actually know anyone whose fixed income is tied only to CPP/OAS, hey? That's the intent behind an initiative like ORPP... to give seniors more dignity in their retirement! What a concept. By the by, if CPP is just so peachy fine to you, why did Harper float the voluntary option?

I disagree. There can't be anyone with an IQ greater than their shoe size that honestly believes this is a good move. ORPP = provincial tax rate increase to fund Wynne's pet projects. The notion that the money is earmarked for infrastructure is hilarious. Every dollar she collects via this "revenue tool" and "invests" in infrastructure frees up another dollar from other "revenue tools" she can hand over (with great joy, no doubt) to the teachers, the OPP, and the other members of god's chosen few.

[socialist]

McWynnty doesn't know how much it'll cost to administer the program. That's why they want the Feds to deal with it (a la the HST)

I think it's a game of Chicken, Ontario doesn't want to go it on their own here. They're praying a party that will administer the plan will get elected, otherwise it'll likely be a Boondoggle.

The Liberal supporters are deluded. All they see is more money for seniors when they retire. I have seen nothing on how this nonsensical pension plan will really affect low-come seniors.

If the payments is considered as income it will simply replace most or all of the Guaranteed Income Supplement.

The Ontario pensions plan will leave low-income seniors even worse off than now.

[socialist]

Ontario is so buried in debt that Wynne is running out of options to raise cash.

It is hard to imagine that the ORPP will be solvent in a couple of decades if the principal is spent now. Oh well, another horrible legacy of our stupidity to be passed to our children...

Wynne is on record as saying the premiums will help finance her grandiose mass transit program. How is that "investment" going to help seniors in their retirement? (Oh, in Hamilton they may find it easier to get around in the completely unnecessary $1 billion glorified streetcar line that will run down the middle of one of the main streets.) No, "investing" means placing the premiums in various dividend- and interest-paying accounts to help the fund grow, as is done with company pension plans. Is that enough evidence for you?

[socialist]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/08/11/wynne-to-provide-details-on-new-provincial-pension-plan.html

but only cost a cup of expensive coffee a day. Assuming you work seven days a week.

Combined with the cup of coffee to pay off the gas plant mess.The Ontario Liberals are saving us from drinking too much coffee.

If the ORPP really is a good, sensible plan, then it should apply to all Ontario workers. Start with those that work for the provincial government. Get rid of their current pensions and enroll them all in the ORPP. I'm sure everyone on the sunshine list would applaud this move.

[Argus]

The Financial Post had an item today which pretty much showed that only those with an income near $90,000 will benefit, and those who will benefit the least are the lower income workers earning $30,000 and under since half of their potential pension will be clawed back.

Because of the ORPP, this person (someone earning $30,000 or less) would see their take-home pay drop and while they would ultimately receive more retirement income there are two problems with this situation: (a) about half that income would be clawed back because they would be entitled to a smaller GIS payment (see Losers table), and ( remember that they already had more disposable income after retirement than while they were working so they didn’t really need the ORPP.

http://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/retirement/lower-income-workers-could-be-the-losers-in-ontario-pension-plan

Edited August 14, 2015 by Argus

[Ash74]

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/08/13/ontarios-debt-drives-wynnes-decisions

Please forgive the source.

But this does show that there was a plan to use the pension funds for infrastructure.

I understand that we need roads,transit,etc,etc for a society to function but how does that translate to dollars to pay for the pay out of the plan?

As of Wednesday it has been stated there is now no need of such idea's. The money brought in for the ORPP will not be used to fund infrastructure.

So where is it really going to go?

Still no answer on admin fee's

This whole plan screams disaster and nobody can stop it.

[Bob Macadoo]

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/08/13/ontarios-debt-drives-wynnes-decisions

Please forgive the source.

But this does show that there was a plan to use the pension funds for infrastructure.

I understand that we need roads,transit,etc,etc for a society to function but how does that translate to dollars to pay for the pay out of the plan?

As of Wednesday it has been stated there is now no need of such idea's. The money brought in for the ORPP will not be used to fund infrastructure.

So where is it really going to go?

Still no answer on admin fee's

This whole plan screams disaster and nobody can stop it.

Why can't it be invested no different than CPP or the multiple successful public pension funds? Use the same brokers and reduce the fees.

[waldo]

The Financial Post had an item today which pretty much showed that only those with an income near $90,000 will benefit, and those who will benefit the least are the lower income workers earning $30,000 and under since half of their potential pension will be clawed back.

Because of the ORPP, this person (someone earning $30,000 or less) would see their take-home pay drop and while they would ultimately receive more retirement income there are two problems with this situation: (a) about half that income would be clawed back because they would be entitled to a smaller GIS payment (see Losers table), and ( remember that they already had more disposable income after retirement than while they were working so they didn’t really need the ORPP.

http://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/retirement/lower-income-workers-could-be-the-losers-in-ontario-pension-plan

this CBC article provides significantly different numbers... even with a presumed GIS clawback on the lowest earning example, retirement benefits are still greater overall... the suggestion that someone would be better off putting that money into a TFSA is a part of the point! Clearly, lower and middle-income Canadians have not embraced voluntary TFSA's anywhere near to the level of those with higher incomes... go figure!

[socialist]

Why can't it be invested no different than CPP or the multiple successful public pension funds? Use the same brokers and reduce the fees.

When you're running a $12B deficit and have the largest sub-sovereign debt on the planet, it doesn't take a genius to understand that this is totally the wrong time to be launching a pension plan with requisite payroll taxes on employees and employers.

Harper - the economist - understands that. Wynne - the school board trustee - does not.

[drummindiver]

The Financial Post had an item today which pretty much showed that only those with an income near $90,000 will benefit, and those who will benefit the least are the lower income workers earning $30,000 and under since half of their potential pension will be clawed back.

Because of the ORPP, this person (someone earning $30,000 or less) would see their take-home pay drop and while they would ultimately receive more retirement income there are two problems with this situation: (a) about half that income would be clawed back because they would be entitled to a smaller GIS payment (see Losers table), and ( remember that they already had more disposable income after retirement than while they were working so they didn’t really need the ORPP.

[url=http://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/retirement/lower-income-workers-could-be-the-losers-in-ontario-pension-plan]http://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/retirement/lower-income-workers-could-be-the-losers-in-ontario-pension-plan[/url

Lol.yeah, but only if the completely inept financial disaster that are the Liberals put any of the tax dollars into the pension. Remember the health premium, the non tax that was to be used to offset wait times and get more doctors? How's that working out Ontario? (Recently announced 50 less doc residencies on Ontario for already seriously under doctored province.).

[socialist]

this CBC article provides significantly different numbers... even with a presumed GIS clawback on the lowest earning example, retirement benefits are still greater overall... the suggestion that someone would be better off putting that money into a TFSA is a part of the point! Clearly, lower and middle-income Canadians have not embraced voluntary TFSA's anywhere near to the level of those with higher incomes... go figure!

The more money Wynne can take from you now, under whatever pretenses, the better so she can give to her union friends that supperted them in the election.

[socialist]

Lol.yeah, but only if the completely inept financial disaster that are the Liberals put any of the tax dollars into the pension. Remember the health premium, the non tax that was to be used to offset wait times and get more doctors? How's that working out Ontario? (Recently announced 50 less doc residencies on Ontario for already seriously under doctored province.).

Is it possible Ontarians' tolerance for public service union militancy and resulting appeasement by their employer/bootlicker has reached a breaking point?

[socialist]

The Financial Post had an item today which pretty much showed that only those with an income near $90,000 will benefit, and those who will benefit the least are the lower income workers earning $30,000 and under since half of their potential pension will be clawed back.

Because of the ORPP, this person (someone earning $30,000 or less) would see their take-home pay drop and while they would ultimately receive more retirement income there are two problems with this situation: (a) about half that income would be clawed back because they would be entitled to a smaller GIS payment (see Losers table), and ( remember that they already had more disposable income after retirement than while they were working so they didn’t really need the ORPP.

http://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/retirement/lower-income-workers-could-be-the-losers-in-ontario-pension-plan

This will be the final nail in the coffin to bankrupting Ontario. From have to have not, from triple AAA credit rating to 2 revisions downwards, from the state owning assets to now selling assets (Hydro One) to satisfy lenders, and with the high cost of business in Ontario from this new payroll tax there will be fewer jobs. Liberal policy has ruined the financial health of this province and the youth of today will be the ones who pay for it.

[socialist]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/08/11/wynne-to-provide-details-on-new-provincial-pension-plan.html

but only cost a cup of expensive coffee a day. Assuming you work seven days a week.

Combined with the cup of coffee to pay off the gas plant mess.The Ontario Liberals are saving us from drinking too much coffee.

Estimates were between $130-$200 per person. So the government will collect 1.9% of your income ($90,000 max) of which a percentage will be spent on bureaucracy.

The median family income in Ontario is $76,510. This means that an additional $1453.69 in ORPP taxes will be taken from the median family in Ontario of which only 86-90% will actually get invested. And that is if they hold the line on the cost per person numbers and we all know how well the OLP holds the line on spending. If they are stating it is $200 per person you can bet that it will end up being $500.

[socialist]

at it's current benefits level... do you actually know anyone whose fixed income is tied only to CPP/OAS, hey? That's the intent behind an initiative like ORPP... to give seniors more dignity in their retirement! What a concept. By the by, if CPP is just so peachy fine to you, why did Harper float the voluntary option?

Key word: "Tax Credit"

The Harper government believes that money left in the taxpayer's pocket is far better than any money given to an incompetent, corrupt government to squander on paying off their handlers and building pet projects.

You would prefer a government pension plan because you apparently don't have the ability to make it to the bank with 2 pieces of ID and open a TFSA