dre Posted July 9, 2015 Report Posted July 9, 2015 Most Greeks retire in their 50's, while Germans retire at 67. Greeks also work nearly 40% longer hours than Germans... Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
-1=e^ipi Posted July 9, 2015 Report Posted July 9, 2015 Greeks also work nearly 40% longer hours than Germans... But do they work as hard? Perhaps they say they work longer to get higher pay from their employers. Quote
dre Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 But do they work as hard? Perhaps they say they work longer to get higher pay from their employers. They work hard but they are not as productive. They are self employed farmers etc, and productivity is different than what you see in an automated manufacturing sector or whatever. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Michael Hardner Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 So the update is that the Greek plan submitted is almost as austere as the one they ostensibly rejected, and nothing like what they promised to the people of Greece. This from CBC Radio's reporting today. Thoughts ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dre Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 So the update is that the Greek plan submitted is almost as austere as the one they ostensibly rejected, and nothing like what they promised to the people of Greece. This from CBC Radio's reporting today. Thoughts ? Really bad move in the long term, but not suprising. The government was going to be unable to pay its workers and would have had to deal with all kinds of nastiness. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 Greek spending is in line with the rest of the EU. You keep repeating this meme as if its true but it isnt. You keep ignoring the fact that Greeks do not have the money to have their spending in line with others in the EU. They don't have the economy, the organization or the tax collecting abilities to fund services the same as the French and Germans. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 Well if they didnt have so much revenue going towards interest payments it would be in line. So the claim that "even if the debt was forgiven" is not true. In any case though, over and over this is portrayed as a spending problem and people keep trotting out the whole "lazy entitled greeks" meme which isnt true. Lots of their debt was forgiven previously. They have systemic issues including massive corruption and a bureaucracy which makes operating businesses tremendously expensive. And no nation not awash in oil can afford to sustain a pension system whereby most of their people retire at 55 on 96 % of their salaries for the rest of their lives. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a flaming idiot. Bloomberg did a decent piece on what Greece needs to do to reform itself. http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/heres-how-greece-can-fix-itself/ar-AAc6kse Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 Greeks also work nearly 40% longer hours than Germans... Might have something to do with the fact that almost every union contract has a provision for extra 'ghost workers' whose salaries can be sent directly to the union leadership... Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 You keep ignoring the fact that Greeks do not have the money to have their spending in line with others in the EU. They don't have the economy, the organization or the tax collecting abilities to fund services the same as the French and Germans. No I dont ignore that fact at all, Iv actually posted that about 5 times. They need to fix their tax collections issues, and get out from underneath the crushing euro debt. Austerity wont help with any of this it will just continue to cause massive contraction. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 No I dont ignore that fact at all, Iv actually posted that about 5 times. They need to fix their tax collections issues, and get out from underneath the crushing euro debt. Austerity wont help with any of this it will just continue to cause massive contraction. I think outside lenders have a perfect right to demand they get their books in order before loaning them more money. Since no Greek government was willing to take the political risk of seriously cracking down on tax avoidance and the black market economy, the creditors demanded they cut their expenses instead. As the bloomberg article pointed out, there are a lot of things the Greeks could be doing to get their economy moving again. They simply won't do them. Eliminating all those rules and regulations, to say nothing of corruption, was not something they were willing to engage with. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 I think outside lenders have a perfect right to demand they get their books in order before loaning them more money. Yes, investors in greek bonds certainly do have that right, but Greece should not be borrowing more money from the ECB. That just perpetuates the vicious debt cycle they are in. Greece should default and re-implement their own currency. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
msj Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 Yes, investors in greek bonds certainly do have that right, but Greece should not be borrowing more money from the ECB. That just perpetuates the vicious debt cycle they are in. Greece should default and re-implement their own currency. I agree. Instead, the Greek government has wasted everyone's time by holding a referendum and then capitulating to their demands. Austerity will continue until who knows when? Maybe the Greeks will have to turf out these bozos and find a new party willing to do the heavy lifting to end the austerity, force the haircuts on the debt, and rebuild with a new currency. As nakedcapitalism puts it: Tsipras has just destoryed Greece Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
Bryan Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 the Greek government has wasted everyone's time by holding a referendum and then capitulating to their demands. That's because they were still holding to the socialist dream until they woke up and realized that they really had run out of other people's money. Quote
Shady Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 Greeks also work nearly 40% longer hours than Germans... How do they work longer hours than Germans? Quote
dre Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 How do they work longer hours than Germans? They spend more hours working. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Bryan Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 How do they work longer hours than Germans? Metric hours, 100 minutes long. Quote
Shady Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 Metric hours, 100 minutes long. How many metric hours do they work before retirement compared to Germans? Quote
Bryan Posted July 10, 2015 Report Posted July 10, 2015 How many metric hours do they work before retirement compared to Germans? One kilohour? Quote
sharkman Posted July 11, 2015 Report Posted July 11, 2015 How many metric hours do they work before retirement compared to Germans? Facts are stubborn things... Quote
BubberMiley Posted July 11, 2015 Report Posted July 11, 2015 Facts are stubborn things...Yes, they are.https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS Quote "I think it's fun watching the waldick get all excited/knickers in a knot over something." -scribblet
kimmy Posted July 12, 2015 Report Posted July 12, 2015 I would expect it's pretty hard to gauge how many hours Greeks actually work. I gather Greece's "black economy" is almost unprecedented among developed nations. Bickering over whether their social programs are too generous misses the real problem, which is that these bozos don't know how to collect taxes on anything. -k Quote (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ﾉ(° -°ﾉ)
Bryan Posted July 12, 2015 Report Posted July 12, 2015 I would expect it's pretty hard to gauge how many hours Greeks actually work. Not only that, but if they cheat on their taxes as much as we've seen, it stands to reason that they probably also cheat on their time cards. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 12, 2015 Report Posted July 12, 2015 So the update is that the Greek plan submitted is almost as austere as the one they ostensibly rejected, and nothing like what they promised to the people of Greece. This from CBC Radio's reporting today. Thoughts ? There's an excellent opinion piece on this from economist Johnna Montgomerie. I hope you take the time to read it, since hers is an educated opinion on the matter, which is a hell of a lot more than I can say for what's offered on this forum. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 12, 2015 Report Posted July 12, 2015 I would expect it's pretty hard to gauge how many hours Greeks actually work. I gather Greece's "black economy" is almost unprecedented among developed nations. Bickering over whether their social programs are too generous misses the real problem, which is that these bozos don't know how to collect taxes on anything. -k More importantly, it ignores that the bozos in the banks effectively destroyed the world economy in 2008 and are now forcing the working class schmucks around the world to finance their bail out. In 50 years, we will look back on this period with utter disbelief that humanity allowed such a massive redistribution and concentration of wealth into the hands of the world's wealthiest people, as opposed to helping those who really need it. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 12, 2015 Report Posted July 12, 2015 I read it but I didn't learn anything new. Why is it excellent? The conclusion? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
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