Greece Goes Broke

[GostHacked]

Sorry, but making retirement eligible at age 50 IS ludicrous.

You'll be lucky to retire at all.

[cybercoma]

Canada 40 years. What's your point? The simple fact is that Greece doesn't have whatever kind of bloated social system you seem to think it has. Its spending per GDP is exactly on par with the rest of Europe. Greece's problem is a massive secondary economy that pays cash and hides transactions from government. It's a revenue problem, not a spending problem.

Edited June 30, 2015 by cybercoma

[Shady]

You'll be lucky to retire at all.

I'll be fine.

[Shady]

Canada 40 years. What's your point? The simple fact is that Greece doesn't have whatever kind of bloated social system you seem to think it has. Its spending per GDP is exactly on par with the rest of Europe. Greece's problem is a massive secondary economy that pays cash and hides transactions from government. It's a revenue problem, not a spending problem.

You're delusional. It's a big spending problem. Their legacy costs are enormous. People retire sooner, for less years working, while paying much less to their retirement. All condoned by the government. And they all think they're entitled to it.

[TimG]

The simple fact is that Greece doesn't have whatever kind of bloated social system you seem to think it has.

The problem is it can't pay for the system it wants to have so it makes no difference if others spend more.

[Shady]

If revenues were higher, so would the benefits. That's how it's worked for decades.

[cybercoma]

You're delusional. It's a big spending problem.

Show me their GDP ratios relative to other countries in the EU then. Someone else has already posted them here and thoroughly debunked your claim of "big spending." Maybe for once in your nearly 17,000 posts you might actually want to back up what you're saying with official sources, like the rules and guidelines suggest. Right now you're just pissing into the wind.

[cybercoma]

The problem is it can't pay for the system it wants to have so it makes no difference if others spend more.

We're talking about GDP ratios and you make this statement like it's about absolute dollars. Really?

[Derek 2.0]

Putin has stated that he will help if asked. I thought the Russian economy was in trouble. Is Putin in a position to help Greece and pull this NATO nation into the Russian sphere?

Replace Russia/Putin with Gazprom and Turkish Stream Pipeline, and yes, its a possibility, but unlikely.

[Derek 2.0]

Meanwhile, Russia has just signed a pipeline deal with Greece. Putin has just visited Greece and has publicly suggested that if Greece asks, then Russia will help. Is there a danger that Greece, this pivotal NATO nation in the region, will turn to the "dark side"? Is it time to review Western sanctions against Russia?

Greece isn't pivotal in the region, that would be Turkey........The Greeks, even at the height of the Cold War, were considered unreliable, with largely an antiquated military, requiring the "adults" to keep the Greeks and Turks having at her (over Cyprus)........the inclusion of Greece into NATO was namely due to pent-up guilt on the part of the British and the realization that without including them, the militant Communist groups within Greece in the 1940s would have won the civil war, and brought Greece willingly into the Soviet sphere.......

Better a crappy ally, then another enemy in the region back then when most of Europe was in ruins.......today, let the Russians have Greece.

[dre]

Greece isn't pivotal in the region, that would be Turkey........The Greeks, even at the height of the Cold War, were considered unreliable, with largely an antiquated military, requiring the "adults" to keep the Greeks and Turks having at her (over Cyprus)........the inclusion of Greece into NATO was namely due to pent-up guilt on the part of the British and the realization that without including them, the militant Communist groups within Greece in the 1940s would have won the civil war, and brought Greece willingly into the Soviet sphere.......

Better a crappy ally, then another enemy in the region back then when most of Europe was in ruins.......today, let the Russians have Greece.

Ahhhh yess... Brilliant plan. Call the EP and tell them about your brilliant idea. LOL.

[Derek 2.0]

Ahhhh yess... Brilliant plan. Call the EP and tell them about your brilliant idea. LOL.

So your plan would be to oppose (some how) the left-leaning Greek Government seeking improved relations with Russia? So really, what is wrong the Greeks (if its sought bail-out is rejected by the EU) receiving a money-mart/Mafia like loan from the Russians, in exchange, allowing the Russians access to Greek O&G pipelines.......

So what is your idea? Give the Greeks money at their terms for fear of them getting money off the Russians? If they do receive money from the Russians, then what? Boycott or create trade barriers with the Greeks? Go to war with the Greeks/Russians?

So what is your brilliant idea?

[TimG]

We're talking about GDP ratios and you make this statement like it's about absolute dollars. Really?

Yes really. Greeks made choices to fund social services that they could not pay for with the taxes that the are able to collect. If makes no difference that they spend a smaller percentage of gdp than other nations. The problem is they cost more than the the revenue they had. If they reduced their expectations for social services to match the available revenue they would have been fine. Edited June 30, 2015 by TimG

[Bonam]

Yes really. Greeks made choices to fund social services that they could not pay for with the taxes that the are able to collect. If makes no difference that they spend a smaller percentage of gdp than other nations. The problem is they cost more than the the revenue they had. If they reduced their expectations for social services to match the available revenue they would have been fine.

It's funny isn't it, the focus of cybercoma and dre on comparing to their neighbors? Somehow the fact that spending far outstripped revenues just does not seem relevant to them. As long as your neighbor has nice stuff, you gotta have it too, little details like affording it be damned!

[Bryan]

Not in any rightwing government we've seen in Canada or the US in the last 20 years.

Canada hasn't had anything even remotely close to a rightwing government in a lot longer than 20 years.

[cybercoma]

Canada hasn't had anything even remotely close to a rightwing government in a lot longer than 20 years.

No because your outdated idea of what rightwing means is extremist garbage that only the fringe of society would vote for.

[Wilber]

Ahhhh yess... Brilliant plan. Call the EP and tell them about your brilliant idea. LOL.

Wasn't it the Soviet Union's inability to keep propping up the economies of its East Bloc satellites that resulted in the demise of the Warsaw Pact in the first place.Unless things change in Greece, it would become a millstone around Russia's neck instead of the EU's.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's funny isn't it, the focus of cybercoma and dre on comparing to their neighbors? Somehow the fact that spending far outstripped revenues just does not seem relevant to them. As long as your neighbor has nice stuff, you gotta have it too, little details like affording it be damned!

Yes...it is funny. "Inequality" must be vanquished wherever it is found, regardless of contributing behaviours and economic reality. The Banksters caused all the problems !

[Shady]

Great observation. It's a classic case of 'keeping up the the Jones', perpetrated by similar types to cyber and dre. Who cares what you can afford, so-and-so has that! Who cares if it brings the house down around you. It's somebody elses fault.

[cybercoma]

And now for the nonsense taglines that have nothing to do with what's being said. Troll away, boys.

[dre]

Somehow the fact that spending far outstripped revenues just does not seem relevant to them.

I dont know how you could come up with that from reading my posts. And comparing %GDP spending levels between peers is part of virtually ever analysis of national spending levels ever done in history so stop trying to pretend its something I thought up myself.

[dre]

Great observation. It's a classic case of 'keeping up the the Jones', perpetrated by similar types to cyber and dre. Who cares what you can afford, so-and-so has that! Who cares if it brings the house down around you. It's somebody elses fault.

More strawmen and more nonsense.

I never said anything about what Greece could afford. The claim was made (and is often made) that Greeks had extravagant social spending. I just pointed out that claim is not true and very easily debunked.

[Bonam]

I dont know how you could come up with that from reading my posts.

How? You repeatedly compared Greece's spending to that of its neighbors and used that as a justification of its spending levels. Meanwhile ignoring the fact that the spending was far in excess of revenues. Spending that significantly exceeds revenues is not justified (except for short periods of crisis), regardless of what your neighbors are doing.

[dre]

How? You repeatedly compared Greece's spending to that of its neighbors and used that as a justification of its spending levels. Meanwhile ignoring the fact that the spending was far in excess of revenues. Spending that significantly exceeds revenues is not justified (except for short periods of crisis), regardless of what your neighbors are doing.

Youre just lying now. I did not ignore the fact that its spending was in excess of its revenues. In fact I posted that about a half dozen times. Nor did I justify anything. I simply pointed out that people who claim Greeces social spending levels were extravagant are full of shite.

And whether you like it or not, spending levels for national programs are normally compared those of a nations peers. If you dont like it dont cry to me, take it up with every economist on earth.

[Bob Macadoo]

Youre just lying now. I did not ignore the fact that its spending was in excess of its revenues. In fact I posted that about a half dozen times. Nor did I justify anything. I simply pointed out that people who claim Greeces social spending levels were extravagant are full of shite.

And whether you like it or not, spending levels for national programs are normally compared those of a nations peers. If you dont like it dont cry to me, take it up with every economist on earth.

I think what they're saying is that Greece is some sort of warlord state...dogs really compared to Germany......how they doing in comparison to Sierra Leone?