Greece Goes Broke

[cybercoma]

I read it but I didn't learn anything new. Why is it excellent? The conclusion?

Don't make me report you to Charles for trolling.

[msj]

Not only that, but if they cheat on their taxes as much as we've seen, it stands to reason that they probably also cheat on their time cards.

Somehow, I guess, employers are not going to check and don't mind paying 40% more for shirking because, Greece.

Edited July 12, 2015 by msj

[GostHacked]

You keep ignoring the fact that Greeks do not have the money to have their spending in line with others in the EU. They don't have the economy, the organization or the tax collecting abilities to fund services the same as the French and Germans.

Not one nation on this planet is any different. They are all broke.

[sharkman]

Somehow, I guess, employers are not going to check and don't mind paying 40% more for shirking because, Greece.

Same reason why the Greek government doesn't check on the tax shirking.

[BubberMiley]

We just can't say what that reason is because it would make no sense and we would look stupid.

[WIP]

I agree.

Instead, the Greek government has wasted everyone's time by holding a referendum and then capitulating to their demands.

Austerity will continue until who knows when? Maybe the Greeks will have to turf out these bozos and find a new party willing to do the heavy lifting to end the austerity, force the haircuts on the debt, and rebuild with a new currency.

As nakedcapitalism puts it: Tsipras has just destoryed Greece

I think the rumours that are attributed to Yanis Varoufakis, that Tsipras didn't actually want to win the referendum are likely correct. I guess he's Greece's Obama!

If I was a Greek citizen today, the bulk of my rage would be directed at Tsipras, not the blood-sucking Euro institutions and IMF, who already bailed out the original loansharks, because he made promises he could not, or did not have the courage to back up! He got a mandate from the people to do something radically different if the only option was a selloff of assets (including pension fund capital).

A recent blog entry by public banking advocate - Ellen Brown lists three options the Syriza government was rumoured to be considering, rather than caving in to the Troika; why didn't they have the courage, mandate in hand, to strike out in a new direction, rather than accept the slow, grinding down process of wealth confiscation of lower classes (austerity) and the fire sale of publicly owned lands and assets?

http://ellenbrown.com/2015/07/09/guerrilla-warfare-against-a-hegemonic-power-the-challenge-and-promise-of-greece/

[Bryan]

We just can't say what that reason is because it would make no sense and we would look stupid.

Nothing Greece has done makes any sense, and they do look extremely stupid right now.

[Michael Hardner]

Don't make me report you to Charles for trolling.

I'm serious

[cybercoma]

I'm serious

As serious as a wet fart.

[Michael Hardner]

As serious as a wet fart.

No, I want to know why you think it's "excellent". I understood it, but it was information that I had already seen before, nothing much new.

[TimG]

No, I want to know why you think it's "excellent". I understood it, but it was information that I had already seen before, nothing much new.

I could not figure it out either. The Greek government would not be in this situation if it had cut spending to match revenues 15-20 years ago. But it did not and now they are complaining that the institutions that loaned them money are doing something wrong because they expect their loans to be paid back? It makes no sense.

[cybercoma]

I could not figure it out either. The Greek government would not be in this situation if it had cut spending to match revenues 15-20 years ago. But it did not and now they are complaining that the institutions that loaned them money are doing something wrong because they expect their loans to be paid back? It makes no sense.

15-20 years ago, eh? 2008...just a blip on the radar?

[TimG]

15-20 years ago, eh? 2008...just a blip on the radar?

What does 2008 have to do with a problem created by Greek debt that was piled up over decades?

[sharkman]

I've heard Greece being called the canary in the coal mine. They're just the first, many more to follow. If the go to solution for these situations is to throw more good money after bad, they will indeed run out of money. Margaret Thatcher had it right, sooner or later you run out of other peoples' money.

[Bob Macadoo]

I've heard Greece being called the canary in the coal mine. They're just the first, many more to follow. If the go to solution for these situations is to throw more good money after bad, they will indeed run out of money. Margaret Thatcher had it right, sooner or later you run out of other peoples' money.

Conversely if the solution is to throw your money to lenders....they will indeed run out of money......see how cute quips work......

[GostHacked]

What does 2008 have to do with a problem created by Greek debt that was piled up over decades?

Cybercoma was hinting at the fact that the 2008 financial crisis in the US effected more than just the USA. Greece's economic implosion will also effect other nations. Remember it is a global financial market now. Let's also talk about the recent Chinese stock market crash last week. Also we are waiting on reports to see if Canada has hit a recession. It already started.

But he is also hinting at the fact many like to blame the average Greek citizen instead of going after the law makers and politicians who have allowed this to happen over decades. Willingly I might add. The bankers rule the government.

Any nation that carries a large debt with a declining manufacturing sector and declining economy is already in trouble. Aging population, not enough income via taxes to pay the growing number of retirees now also retiring with debt and many declaring bankruptcy.

Edited July 12, 2015 by GostHacked

[TimG]

But he is also hinting at the fact many like to blame the average Greek citizen instead of going after the law makers and politicians who have allowed this to happen over decades. Willingly I might add. The bankers rule the government.

The 2008 crisis affected everyone but those countries which were most irresponsible are the ones in trouble now. Also, ultimately the voters are responsible for the governments they elect so the Greek citizens are to blame for bad decisions made by its government. Lastly, bankers can only exert control over governments that spend more than they collect tax revenue. If Greece had made the decision to reduce spending to match revenue years ago it would not be in this position today. No banker forced Greece to borrow money instead of telling its citizens to live with less.

Any nation that carries a large debt with a declining manufacturing sector and declining economy is already in trouble. Aging population, not enough income via taxes to pay the growing number of retirees now also retiring with debt and many declaring bankruptcy.

Yes, and end solution will all be variations on what Greece has to do: cut pensions and raise taxes. Countries that are more fiscally prudent today will have fewer problems in the future. Edited July 12, 2015 by TimG

[GostHacked]

The 2008 crisis affected everyone but those countries which were most irresponsible are the ones in trouble now. Also, ultimately the voters are responsible for the governments they elect so the Greek citizens are to blame for bad decisions made by its government. Lastly, bankers can only exert control over governments that spend more than they collect tax revenue. If Greece had made the decision to reduce spending to match revenue years ago it would not be in this position today. No banker forced Greece to borrow money instead of telling its citizens to live with less.

Yes, and end solution will all be variations on what Greece has to do: cut pensions and raise taxes. Countries that are more fiscally prudent today will have fewer problems in the future.

Bankers have a lot more control over a nation than you think. You can blame the citizenry for voting in the government, but how do you explain the fact that the recently 'elected' leader end up double-crossing the Greek population into more problems? Banks and governments are corrupt and feed off each others corruption.

Each time the Greeks have gone to the poles to change the government, they get shafted. So peaceful change is not happening, violent revolutions are inevitable.

Name me 5 countries that are fiscally in good shape?

[TimG]

the recently 'elected' leader end up double-crossing the Greek population into more problems?

It is not to hard to understand: he had someone teach him some economics and he realized that Greece will become a failed state if it can't get a deal with EU. This has nothing to do with corruption and everything to do with understanding math. It is also worth remembering that he can't force the Greek parliament to take the deal and if the Greek parliament takes the deal it will because they were persuaded that it is the "lesser of all evils". It won't be because some nefarious bankers bought them all off.

Name me 5 countries that are fiscally in good shape?

All countries face a looming pension crisis. The countries running surpluses today will be in a better position to manage it. Those countries include Canada, Germany, Switzerland, New Zealand, Norway and others. Edited July 12, 2015 by TimG

[sharkman]

Conversely if the solution is to throw your money to lenders....they will indeed run out of money......see how cute quips work......

The solution is to throw no money anywhere. It's not cute though.

[cybercoma]

Bankers have a lot more control over a nation than you think. You can blame the citizenry for voting in the government, but how do you explain the fact that the recently 'elected' leader end up double-crossing the Greek population into more problems? Banks and governments are corrupt and feed off each others corruption.

You could also question the logic that austerity will fix Greece by pointing to the measures adopted in 2010 and 2012, which led to far worse conditions, just as these new measures will as well. The demands are impossible to meet. They will further accelerate inequality in Greece and you're going to end up with a mass revolt from the young working-age population. Tear gas will be flying in Athens before long.

[Shady]

The problem is that Greece never adopted any reforms and still hasn't fixed it tax collecting problems.

[Argus]

I would expect it's pretty hard to gauge how many hours Greeks actually work. I gather Greece's "black economy" is almost unprecedented among developed nations. Bickering over whether their social programs are too generous misses the real problem, which is that these bozos don't know how to collect taxes on anything.

-k

I think a guy in Matt Fisher's column this morning put it succinctly enough.

“I know from a good friend of mine who grew up in Canada before returning to Greece that your country was built on the rules of Her Majesty. Every country has its own mentality and it has never been the same as that here. What we have is the mentality that rules are made to be broken.”

[dre]

What does 2008 have to do with a problem created by Greek debt that was piled up over decades?

Ummm basic research is good.

[dre]

It is not to hard to understand: he had someone teach him some economics and he realized that Greece will become a failed state if it can't get a deal with EU.

Greece is already a failed state, its just a matter of whether or not they can recover.

Accepting more bailout money from the ECB with yet more interest attached is not a road to recovery... Its a recipe for them to be in this same boat again in a few years.

Greece needs to take control of their own currency, allow for it to devalue on the floating exchange rate system.