Microaggressions

-1=e^ipi · November 8, 2015

I'll also point out that according to the definition of Berkeley, Voltaire committed microaggressions when he said:

"Mortals are equal; it is not birth, it’s virtue that makes the difference"

Darn Voltaire, denying people's racial identity by focusing on virtue. His work is clearly problematic and we should ban Voltaire in universities.

cybercoma · November 8, 2015

Breaking News: 18th century French philosopher may have had ideals that are sexist by modern standards. :rolleyes:

cybercoma · November 8, 2015

I can't wait until you start to compare First Wave feminists to modern day intersectional radical feminists.

-1=e^ipi · November 9, 2015

^ Only in crazy neoprogressive orwellian land does advocating for equality count as sexism.

Smoke · November 9, 2015

Hi cybercoma, I am honestly having some trouble following what exactly a microagression is and therefore do not yet have an opinion on them. I've read the links provided and thought I understood, but it really does seem the goalposts move from day to day. For example I have seen you in other threads refer to conservatives as "old white rich men". Why is that not a microagression, but asking someone where they are from is? Please don't assume I'm trying to be argumentative for arguments sake, or to refute your position on microagressions or to say "gotcha". Just really trying to understand. BTW I am an old white man that is fiscally conservative (but not rich by any means ).

Also, is a microagression only related to race or gender? For example, would it be a microagression if someone referred to redheads as "gingers"?

Smoke

notca · November 9, 2015

It seems like 'micraggression' is just a word to bolster political correctness. In other words, 'don't tell it like it is, tell it like it isn't. You have to be sure not to hurt anyone's feelings!'

Edited November 9, 2015 by Charles Anthony
deleted re-copied Opening Post

kimmy · November 12, 2015

I'll also point out that according to the definition of Berkeley, Voltaire committed microaggressions when he said:

"Mortals are equal; it is not birth, it’s virtue that makes the difference"

Darn Voltaire, denying people's racial identity by focusing on virtue. His work is clearly problematic and we should ban Voltaire in universities.

Except that nobody is talking about "banning" anything. You've been challenged on that point many times, and have yet to back it up.

-k

-1=e^ipi · November 12, 2015

Except that nobody is talking about "banning" anything. You've been challenged on that point many times, and have yet to back it up.

Yes, you can still say it. But you might get fired from your job, not get a promotion, get a lower grade, etc. for advocating classical liberalism.

Edit: Sorry for typo

Edited November 12, 2015 by -1=e^ipi

kimmy · November 12, 2015

Yes, you can still it. But you might get fired from your job, not get a promotion, get a lower grade, etc. for advocating classical liberalism.

Oh? When did that happen?

-k

kimmy · November 12, 2015

It seems like 'micraggression' is just a word to bolster political correctness. In other words, 'don't tell it like it is, tell it like it isn't. You have to be sure not to hurt anyone's feelings!'

It's not a matter of "tell it like it isn't", it's a question of courtesy.

When you meet a fat person when you're out and about, do you stroll up to them and say "hey, fatty, you sure are fat!"

I'm guessing you probably don't, unless you're an asshole or have some kind of mental disability. And that's not a question of "not telling it like it is", it's just a question of courtesy. They know they're fat, they don't need you to tell them they're fat, and nothing is really going to be accomplished by you telling them they're fat, other than they feel bad and you make them mad at you.

If you see a non-white person, do you stroll up to them and say "hey, did you just get off the boat? How long have you been in this country? Do you even speak english?"

Again, I'm guessing you probably don't, because you understand that only a real dick would act like that. And the idea with "microaggressions" is that there are things that offend people that you might not realize are likely to cause offense.

For example, asking somebody "where are you from?" seems like a harmless enough question, but if you're non-white it carries a different connotation. If you're non-white and you reply "I'm from Burnaby", you've probably been asked "no, I mean, like, are you from Hong Kong?" and the question has a completely different connotation. They feel like you see them as a foreigner. You might have perfectly innocent intentions, but because of their experiences, the question "where are you from?" carries baggage for them that it wouldn't for a white person.

Some here have completely reject that-- "that's a legitimate question and I'm going to ask it and I don't care if you're offended and if you're offended then you're stupid and I don't care anyway!" but I-- perhaps naively-- believe that most people would, given the information, would choose to interact with people in a way that improves the chances of the interaction being positive.

This thread was launched to criticize an informational brochure sent around by the University of California to their staff. Cybercoma posted a link to the actual document on the first page of this thread, and you can read it for yourself to see whether it's an "Orwellian oppression of speech" or whether it's advice for university staff on avoiding some common pitfalls in interacting with students.

If you're a professor, and it's the end of the term and you got back a bunch of student evaluations that said things like "this guy is a bigoted asshole" and you had no idea why, wouldn't you want all the information you could get to figure out how to improve things next semester?

-k

kimmy · November 12, 2015

Also, is a microagression only related to race or gender? For example, would it be a microagression if someone referred to redheads as "gingers"?

That's been my objection to this concept... it's "official" definition seems to specify it relating to race and gender... but to me it seems like it could be applicable to many situations. I've mentioned my own experience of being talked down to by sales-people, for example.

At a furniture-moving party, if a physically smaller man were told to step back and let somebody stronger deal with the heavy stuff, I would imagine that would be an emasculating experience for him, and to me would be a good example of the kind of thing we're talking about here.

-k

Hal 9000 · November 12, 2015

Hey Fatty is not a microagression. Im guessing that we'll all agree that that is just a rude asshole comment. Asking a black person if they'd like to join you for fried chicken and watermelon is rude and bigoted too - albeit funny.

But, if it has become offensive to ask someone where their from, then I think we've gone too far. Are we gonna report people for asking a black person if they saw the game or if we ask an asian for help on a math problem.

Hal 9000 · November 12, 2015

That's been my objection to this concept... it's "official" definition seems to specify it relating to race and gender... but to me it seems like it could be applicable to many situations. I've mentioned my own experience of being talked down to by sales-people, for example.

At a furniture-moving party, if a physically smaller man were told to step back and let somebody stronger deal with the heavy stuff, I would imagine that would be an emasculating experience for him, and to me would be a good example of the kind of thing we're talking about here.

-k

So, If you're struggling with lifting a heavy object into your car, what is my position? Do I offend you by helping or do I look like a prick and just stroll on by? Do I hold open the door? Do I let you cut the line to the bathroom? As a white guy, what can I do (if anything) that's not offensive?

kimmy · November 12, 2015

Hey Fatty is not a microagression. Im guessing that we'll all agree that that is just a rude asshole comment. Asking a black person if they'd like to join you for fried chicken and watermelon is rude and bigoted too - albeit funny.

But, if it has become offensive to ask someone where their from, then I think we've gone too far. Are we gonna report people for asking a black person if they saw the game or if we ask an asian for help on a math problem.

I don't think anybody is talking about reporting anybody for anything. This was intended as constructive advice, not a list of punishable offenses.

So, If you're struggling with lifting a heavy object into your car, what is my position? Do I offend you by helping or do I look like a prick and just stroll on by? Do I hold open the door? Do I let you cut the line to the bathroom? As a white guy, what can I do (if anything) that's not offensive?

It depends greatly on context.

I would think that offering to help someone who is obviously struggling would be welcomed in most circumstances. On the other hand, telling your friend "Step back, little bro! I'll take that, it's too heavy for you" is probably going to hurt his feelings, especially if his girlfriend is watching. And again, you can do whatever the hell you want, but I'd think that most people would want to consider the other party's feelings... especially if the other party is a friend or a prospective client.

-k

Hal 9000 · November 12, 2015

I don't think anybody is talking about reporting anybody for anything. This was intended as constructive advice, not a list of punishable offenses.

It depends greatly on context.

I would think that offering to help someone who is obviously struggling would be welcomed in most circumstances. On the other hand, telling your friend "Step back, little bro! I'll take that, it's too heavy for you" is probably going to hurt his feelings, especially if his girlfriend is watching. And again, you can do whatever the hell you want, but I'd think that most people would want to consider the other party's feelings... especially if the other party is a friend or a prospective client.

-k

Whaaaaat! Asking a smaller weaker guy to step aside is hilarious. We all do that, in fact we relish those opportunities.

kimmy · November 12, 2015

Hey Fatty is not a microagression. Im guessing that we'll all agree that that is just a rude asshole comment. Asking a black person if they'd like to join you for fried chicken and watermelon is rude and bigoted too - albeit funny.

Asking a black person whether they'd like to join you for fried chicken and watermelon is only offensive because you understand that there's a social context there that changes what would be an innocent question into something rude and bigoted.

Without the context, it's a completely innocent question. The idea here is that there are other situations where there's also a social context that changes innocent questions into something that are rude to varying degrees.

Being aware of the context, I'm assuming you opt not to invite black people to join you for fried chicken and watermelon, yes?

Do you feel your freedom of speech has been taken away? Does this kind of self-censorship burn you inside? Does your heart ache to just once invite a black person for fried chicken and watermelon? Do you find yourself saying "damnit, I am going to ask a black person to join me for fried chicken and watermelon, and it's a perfectly reasonable question, and if they react negatively it's their fault for being unreasonable!"

Most of us, given the information, choose to interact in a positive way with people, don't we? Does giving you more information ever actually hurt you? I mean, if worse comes to worst, you can still choose to be rude and inconsiderate if you wish.

-k

kimmy · November 12, 2015

I really do believe people are looking for things to be offended about.

After what BC-Chick or myself posted, why would you think that? I think we were both pretty clear that these aren't incidents where you fly off the handle and yell at people, these are incidents where you bite your tongue, form a worse opinion of the person you're interacting with, and carry on with your day.

Like, a salesman talks down to me like I'm an idiot, I'm not "looking to be offended", I'm just offended.

Perhaps the person asking is just looking to understand that person's cultural heritage and not being aggressive at all.

...and I'm sure the salesman isn't deliberately trying to offend me. Why would he hurt his chances of getting a commission?

But if he's talking to me like I'm an idiot, then he's letting me know he assumes I'm an idiot, and I'm not very happy about it regardless of what he intended. It makes me less likely to buy his stuff and give him his commission.

-k

kimmy · November 12, 2015

Whaaaaat! Asking a smaller weaker guy to step aside is hilarious. We all do that, in fact we relish those opportunities.

wellll, I guess it is pretty funny.

-k

Hal 9000 · November 12, 2015

After what BC-Chick or myself posted, why would you think that? I think we were both pretty clear that these aren't incidents where you fly off the handle and yell at people, these are incidents where you bite your tongue, form a worse opinion of the person you're interacting with, and carry on with your day.

Like, a salesman talks down to me like I'm an idiot, I'm not "looking to be offended", I'm just offended.

...and I'm sure the salesman isn't deliberately trying to offend me. Why would he hurt his chances of getting a commission?

But if he's talking to me like I'm an idiot, then he's letting me know he assumes I'm an idiot, and I'm not very happy about it regardless of what he intended. It makes me less likely to buy his stuff and give him his commission.

-k

They talk to me that way too, maybe it's my age. I don't see a microagression, i see a punk with a red or blue polo shirt and a nametag.

I know what I know and what I don't know. I don't mind the pompous little nerd for a few minutes to explain something because I know that in my world he wouldn't last a day - I guess that's what I use to make it OK, but really, i'm not competing with this guy for knowledge and my wife isn't gonna think any less of me me because some pale ass skinny nerd is defining RAM from ROM.

I f*** with them by asking where to put the disks in iPads and other dumb questions - oh yes, I make them earn their money.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Michael Hardner
profanity

kimmy · November 12, 2015

They talk to me that way too, maybe it's my age. I don't see a microagression, i see a punk with a red or blue polo shirt and a nametag.

What you call it isn't really the point. They've put a name on an experience that probably everybody can relate to in some respect or another. I doubt that most people who experience these sorts of minor slights refer to them as "microaggression" either.

I've only known the term "microaggression" for a couple of months, but I've known the experience of "they talked to me like I was an idiot" all my life. Calling it a "microaggression" doesn't make it more serious or more significant. It's the same as it has always been, a minor annoyance. It's not a big deal (hence the name "micro"...) but for people who have to deal with these kinds of things more often than us, I would imagine that it sometimes feels like being bitten to death by ducks.

I know what I know and what I don't know. I don't mind the pompous little nerd for a few minutes to explain something because I know that in my world he wouldn't last a day - I guess that's what I use to make it OK, but really, i'm not competing with this guy for knowledge and my wife isn't gonna think any less of me me because some pale ass skinny nerd is defining RAM from ROM.

I f*** with them by asking where to put the disks in iPads and other dumb questions - oh yes, I make them earn their money.

Of course. As I said earlier... these aren't the kinds of things that people fly off the handle over. They're minor annoyances that people live with and complain about when they get home.

And providing information like the brochure that launched this thread isn't intended to turn a minor annoyance into a major incident, or to create an actionable code of behavior, or to provide me a way to launch a human rights class action lawsuit against the Best Buy Nerd-Herders.

The intention is to provide the college staff or the Nerd Herd with information that might help them avoid common pitfalls that inadvertently make people annoyed at them. I keep getting the impression that if Best Buy published a brochure (or an infographic?) for its sales staff that said "Hint: Don't talk to the blonde girl and the old man as if they're stupid!" (or emoticons to that effect?) that some of the folks here would fly of the handle. "DEAR GOD politically correct indoctrination at Best Buy!" "OMG those Nerd-Herders are being oppressed their free speech is being taken away GOD DAMN IT this is so ORWELLIAN" "THIS IS SO PATHETIC that blonde girl and old guy are getting mad about this MY GOD if people can't deal with this minor stuff how are they going to deal with PUTIN whats next are they going to throw the Nerd Herd in JAIL if they say the wrong thing???"

No, nobody is going to throw the Nerd Herd in jail. The point is to help the Nerd Herd interact with their customers better, not protect the blonde girl and the old man.

-k

Edited November 12, 2015 by Michael Hardner
profanity

Hal 9000 · November 12, 2015

What you call it isn't really the point. They've put a name on an experience that probably everybody can relate to in some respect or another. I doubt that most people who experience these sorts of minor slights refer to them as "microaggression" either.

I've only known the term "microaggression" for a couple of months, but I've known the experience of "they talked to me like I was an idiot" all my life. Calling it a "microaggression" doesn't make it more serious or more significant. It's the same as it has always been, a minor annoyance. It's not a big deal (hence the name "micro"...) but for people who have to deal with these kinds of things more often than us, I would imagine that it sometimes feels like being bitten to death by ducks.

Of course. As I said earlier... these aren't the kinds of things that people fly off the handle over. They're minor annoyances that people live with and complain about when they get home.

And providing information like the brochure that launched this thread isn't intended to turn a minor annoyance into a major incident, or to create an actionable code of behavior, or to provide me a way to launch a human rights class action lawsuit against the Best Buy Nerd-Herders.

The intention is to provide the college staff or the Nerd Herd with information that might help them avoid common pitfalls that inadvertently make people annoyed at them. I keep getting the impression that if Best Buy published a brochure (or an infographic?) for its sales staff that said "Hint: Don't talk to the blonde girl and the old man as if they're stupid!" (or emoticons to that effect?) that some of the folks here would fly of the handle. "DEAR GOD politically correct indoctrination at Best Buy!" "OMG those Nerd-Herders are being oppressed their free speech is being taken away GOD DAMN IT this is so ORWELLIAN" "THIS IS SO PATHETIC that blonde girl and old guy are getting mad about this MY GOD if people can't deal with this minor stuff how are they going to deal with PUTIN whats next are they going to throw the Nerd Herd in JAIL if they say the wrong thing???"

No, nobody is going to throw the Nerd Herd in jail. The point is to help the Nerd Herd interact with their customers better, not protect the blonde girl and the old man.

-k

Hey blondie, are you calling me old? Lol! I'm not old, I'm just older than them.

Michael Hardner · November 12, 2015

wellll, I guess it is pretty funny.

-k

Sure, and we shouldn't forget what is and isn't funny.

In social engagements, I often have to make a quick choice between being funny and marginalizing/insulting people.

Michael Hardner · November 12, 2015

Hey blondie, are you calling me old? Lol! I'm not old, I'm just older than them.

Your microagression experience is due to something called ageism, and it's real.

You might think it's funny, but I'm seeing a lot of able and agile 40- and 50- year old IT professionals who are being disparaged unfairly due to their age. It's not fair, as many of them do get it...

TimG · November 12, 2015

And providing information like the brochure that launched this thread isn't intended to turn a minor annoyance into a major incident, or to create an actionable code of behavior, or to provide me a way to launch a human rights class action lawsuit against the Best Buy Nerd-Herders.

The term "white privilege" is offensive to many (it is much more offensive than saying 'the most qualified person should get the job'). A couple questions:

1) Should "white privilege" be on this list?

2) Even if you agree with 1) what are the chances that the people making these lists would every consider adding it?

My feeling is the answer to 2) is zero because these lists are not about providing information. They are about pushing an ideology centered on the cult of the victim (i.e. people with certain attributes are automatically victims because they have those attributes and therefore need to be coddled).