Muslim world Hypocrisy

[Civis Romanus sum]

There are two groups of desperate Muslim boat people at sea right this very moment. The lucky ones are off the coast of Europe, whose European Christian people have made a concerted effort to rescue them, feed, clothe and shelter them.

http://www.dw.de/eu-ships-rescue-more-than-3400-migrants-from-mediterranean/a-18425347

The unlucky ones were the ones trying to reach Muslim countries in southeast Asia. Their reception has been quite a bit different. They've been refused permission to land. Military vessels have warned them off, by gunfire when necessary. Indonesian fishermen have been warned not to pick up these refugees even if they're in the water and drowning, on pain of having their ships seized. Malaysia has closed its coat and warned any refugees they will be arrested, imprisoned and sent home to Burma.

http://www.thedailystar.net/backpage/un-despair-over-lack-rescues-83977

What happened to that universal brotherhood the Muslim world is so famous for? Muslims in Canada, the US and the West have been willing to murder their fellow citizens out of outrage that our countries are harming Muslims in Afghanistan or Iraq. Every western embassy in the world, it seems, has to have protection from Muslim car bombs and suicide bombers because Muslims are furious at our mistreatment of them.

Do you think Indonesia has to worry about that? Or Malaysia? Or Syria or Sudan? Nobody is hijacking their planes or blowing up their embassies abroad. There are no thundering denunciations from the Muslim world about their abuse of human rights (maybe because there are no Muslim governments which respect human rights).

If a Jew accidentally bumps into a Muslim on the street the Muslim world is howling for blood, but if a Muslim cuts off another Muslim's head and dances around with it the Muslim world shrugs without care. Scores of resolutions condemning Israel are pushed through the UN every year by the Islamic block, allegedly because of their abuse of human rights. But every single Muslim nation on Earth abuses human rights. And non-government actors abuse it even more. All Muslim military groups rebelling against a government or fighting with each other are incredibly violent towards civilians and each other. Prisoners are routinely tortured and murdered, and women raped. And it doesn't matter if these rebels are in Africa, Asia, Western Asia or the Middle East. They are defined by their bloodthirsty actions against their fellow Muslims as if they are trying to outdo each other in barbarism.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3002547/IS-likely-committing-genocide-against-Yazidi-minority-Iraq-UN.html

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/hardline-al-qaeda-faction-committing-appalling-atrocities-in-syria-to-enforce-islamic-law-amnesty-international

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/21/boko-haram-claims-baga-massacre-and-threatens-nigerias-neighbours

So it seems to me the Muslim world's outrage is not so much based on any sort of brotherly love or sense of unity, but more a kind of machismo driven arrogance and pride of belonging such as we see in biker gangs and street thugs. Oh, the Hells Angels will kill each other and beat each other but let anyone else dare threaten one and they'll rush to defend that member. The same goes for street gangs. These young Muslim men expressing their outrage at Canada and other western nations out of a sense that they must protect their fellow Muslims never rise to do so against threats from within, only without. So their outrage isn't so much religious but mindless nationalistic bravado.

[Rue]

Well the same people who defend and apologize for Muslim terrorists seem to have ignored you.

Omar, Marcus-Hudson-Big Guy-Eye-Jacee-Ghost-Michael Hardner-all those who have come on this forum claiming to speak for Muslims are silent.

In discussions about Muslim extremism you will be told they are not Muslims by such people. They can't acknowledge there are Muslim extremists. Their script writers don't allow it..

The irony is that Muslim fundamentalist terrorism is killing more Muslims than non Muslims than any damn yankee or Zionist.

I also believe however there are good Muslims who exist, denounce the fundamentalism and terrorism you speak of.

Ironically they are busy working and getting their people out of Muslim countries and bringing them to Canada to escape the very things you talk of.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Rue

[marcus]

If a Jew accidentally bumps into a Muslim on the street the Muslim world is howling for blood, but if a Muslim cuts off another Muslim's head and dances around with it the Muslim world shrugs without care. Scores of resolutions condemning Israel are pushed through the UN every year by the Islamic block, allegedly because of their abuse of human rights.

Give an example of a Jew bumping into a Muslim on the street. Unless you're comparing the carpet bombing of Gaza and killing over 1500 civilians in less than a month, by Israel as a Jew accidentally bumping into a Muslim?

I see Muslims condemning ISIS and Saudi Arabia for cutting heads. I see Muslims condemning Iran for their high rate of death penalty. I see Muslims repeatedly condemning the Syrian government, ISIS and other militant groups for disregarding human rights.

So I'm not sure what world you're looking at.

[marcus]

This message is better with an example: Muslim Leaders Have Roundly Denounced Islamic State, But Conservative Media Won't Tell You That

Here is what Foxnews and their parrots, such as Civis Romanus sum say:

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/08/21/muslim-leaders-have-roundly-denounced-islamic-s/200498

Here is reality:

The Organization Of Islamic Cooperation: The Islamic State Has "Nothing To Do With Islam," Has Committed Crimes "That Cannot Be Tolerated." - http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/07/25/worlds_muslim_leaders_condemn_attacks_on_iraqi_christians/1103410

Al-Azhar: Islamic State Is Corrupt And "A Danger To Islam." - http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2014/Aug-13/267022-al-azhar-condemns-isis-as-corrupt-and-a-danger-to-islam.ashx#axzz3B1ymBb5P

Arab League: "Strongly Denounced" The "Crimes Against Humanity" Carried Out By The Islamic State. - http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/08/11/U-S-weighs-options-to-evacuate-trapped-Yazidis-.html

Turkey's Top Cleric: Islamic State's Threats Are "Hugely Damaging," "Truly Awful." - http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/22/us-iraq-security-turkey-religion-idUSKBN0FR16120140722

CAIR Repeatedly Condemned The Islamic State As "Un-Islamic And Morally Repugnant." - http://www.cair.com/press-center/press-releases/12551-cair-condemns-isis-violence-and-rejects-calls-to-join-extremists-fighting-abroad.html

The Muslim Council Of Great Britain: "Violence Has No Place In Religion." - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/isis-concern-british-muslim-leaders-condemn-extremist-group-9599273.html

The Islamic Society of North America: The Islamic State's Actions "Are To Be Denounced And Are In No Way Representative Of What Islam Actually Teaches. -http://www.isna.net/isna-denounces-isis-attacks-on-iraqs-religious-minorities.html

100 Sunni And Shiite U.K. Imams: The Islamic State Is An "Illegitimate, Vicious Group." - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/12/imams-denounce-isis_n_5579370.html

Saudi Arabia's Highest Religious Authority: Terrorists Like The Islamic State Is The "Number One Enemy Of Islam." - http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/islamic-state-our-top-enemy-saudi-mufti-2014819165435845901.html

Muslim Public Affairs Council: Condemned The Islamic State And Called For "Stand Against Extremism." - http://www.mpac.org/issues/national-security/isis-execution-of-american-journalist-underscores-need-to-combat-extremism.php#.U_Ya0fldV8E

This is just a selection of Muslims groups, without reservation, condemning ISIS. There are hundreds of other links that you can find on the internet which show the opposite of the message Civis Romanus is trying to convey with his post.

Perhaps it's time for you to change your post title to "Finding Out that I am ignorant about the Muslim World"

Edited May 26, 2015 by marcus

[sharkman]

What a collection of nonsense. That list you have is hardly representative of the Muslim world or culture when it comes to violence. Isis is butchering christians and a recent poll showed wide support for them in many ME countries is at 81%. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

The Main Stream Media is NOT conservative. Fox is the only conservative slant in a sea of tv networks and broadcasters that are pushing a liberal pro Obama agenda. Gay marriage and white cops gone wild are their 2 favourite topics. ISIS being allowed to exist by Obama, Clinton raising money illegally, and maintaining her own email server while a government official(illegal) doesn't really cross their radar.

Edit, I forgot to add the link, but it looks like there are plenty of other such sources below.

Edited May 27, 2015 by sharkman

[marcus]

What a collection of nonsense. That list you have is hardly representative of the Muslim world or culture when it comes to violence. Isis is butchering christians and a recent poll showed wide support for them in many ME countries is at 81%. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

The Main Stream Media is NOT conservative. Fox is the only conservative slant in a sea of tv networks and broadcasters that are pushing a liberal pro Obama agenda. Gay marriage and white cops gone wild are their 2 favourite topics. ISIS being allowed to exist by Obama, Clinton raising money illegally, and maintaining her own email server while a government official(illegal) doesn't really cross their radar.

Show where you got this "poll" of Muslims. Curious to see how your so-called poll has more weight than the statements from some of the major Muslim organizations around the world.

Also, how can you call the collection of statements from the biggest Muslim organizations around the world nonsense? Is it because they shatter the fantasy world you're so desperately trying to create?

[Michael Hardner]

What a collection of nonsense. That list you have is hardly representative of the Muslim world or culture when it comes to violence.

Why not ? Why do you get to decide that North Amercians aren't part of the Muslim world ? We've gone down this path so many times... what is the purpose of this discussion if you're going to pick and choose the people that are hypocrites first, then put them in the group that YOU call the 'Muslim World'.

The only reason is to feel superior to others, which is not the case.

Isis is butchering christians and a recent poll showed wide support for them in many ME countries is at 81%.

Many/Most/Some... all of which are weasel words. If you can identify an INDIVIDUAL and a POSITION then we can talk about that person. A hypocrite is a person.

This grouping thing is done by right and left, just a way to demonize others IMO.

The Main Stream Media is NOT conservative.

Everything is relative.

[Argus]

Give an example of a Jew bumping into a Muslim on the street. Unless you're comparing the carpet bombing of Gaza and killing over 1500 civilians in less than a month, by Israel as a Jew accidentally bumping into a Muslim?

You use that term a lot 'carpet bombing'. It leads me to believe either you have no idea what carpet bombing is or are simply being blatantly dishonest and trying to use hyperbole to disguise the lack of substance in your accusations. The war in Gaza was a just war in that Israel was responding to attacks on its people from within Gaza. People die in war, especially if the war takes place in a built-up area.

By the way are you including these guys among your 1500 dead?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2015/03/palestinian-armed-groups-killed-civilians-on-both-sides-in-2014-gaza-conflict/

Edited May 27, 2015 by Argus

[Argus]

Show where you got this "poll" of Muslims. Curious to see how your so-called poll has more weight than the statements from some of the major Muslim organizations around the world.

It's one thing for the fat cats to make public pronouncements to please western reporters and governments, but the surveys show what the Muslim public thinks.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/25/shock-poll-81-of-al-jazeera-arabic-poll-respondents-support-isis/

http://https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/27-of-young-french-muslims-1-62-million-back-the-islamic-state-poll-finds/

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/92-of-saudis-believes-that-isis-conforms-to-the-values-of-islam-and-islamic-law-survey/

[Black Dog]

It's one thing for the fat cats to make public pronouncements to please western reporters and governments, but the surveys show what the Muslim public thinks.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/25/shock-poll-81-of-al-jazeera-arabic-poll-respondents-support-isis/

http://https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/27-of-young-french-muslims-1-62-million-back-the-islamic-state-poll-finds/

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/92-of-saudis-believes-that-isis-conforms-to-the-values-of-islam-and-islamic-law-survey/

First isn't a real poll. Second link is down so I can't comment. The third is exclusive to Saudi Arabia which, well, duh.

[marcus]

It's one thing for the fat cats to make public pronouncements to please western reporters and governments, but the surveys show what the Muslim public thinks.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/25/shock-poll-81-of-al-jazeera-arabic-poll-respondents-support-isis/

http://https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/27-of-young-french-muslims-1-62-million-back-the-islamic-state-poll-finds/

https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/92-of-saudis-believes-that-isis-conforms-to-the-values-of-islam-and-islamic-law-survey/

Nothing screams credibility and validity and the true feelings of all Muslims like a screen capture of an online survey on breitbart and a couple of wordpress blog posts from the same site. That screen capture of an online poll sure crushes the dozens of statements from the biggest Muslims organizations around the world who, without hesitation, condemn ISIS and everything it stands for.

Thanks Argus for, once again, injecting credibility and truth into the discussion. You, sir, ROCK!

[Michael Hardner]

I don't agree with the thesis - but I need to point out we have mad better polls supporting it in the past.

[Big Guy]

For those really interested in this topic I suggest that you read "Heretic" by Ayann Hirsi Ali - ISBN 978-0-345-80882-0.

A controversial, biased (as anyone dealing with religions is) but informative.

[sharkman]

Why not ? Why do you get to decide that North Amercians aren't part of the Muslim world ? We've gone down this path so many times... what is the purpose of this discussion if you're going to pick and choose the people that are hypocrites first, then put them in the group that YOU call the 'Muslim World'.

The only reason is to feel superior to others, which is not the case.

Many/Most/Some... all of which are weasel words. If you can identify an INDIVIDUAL and a POSITION then we can talk about that person. A hypocrite is a person.

This grouping thing is done by right and left, just a way to demonize others IMO.

Everything is relative.

Let's just agree to disagree, although your position here appears to not take into account the Al Jazeera poll or the fact that Isis has repeatedly marched Christians out in groups so as to cut their heads off. Weasel words? Perhaps you could share your thoughts on mass murder of Christians, I'm getting curious.

I also find it rather convenient that Marcus seems unaware of this Al Jazeera poll. Picking and choosing news events as usual.

[Michael Hardner]

Let's just agree to disagree, although your position here appears to not take into account the Al Jazeera poll or the fact that Isis has repeatedly marched Christians out in groups so as to cut their heads off.

I actually helped out YOUR side in the debate in my post above. The "good" poll that I read had polls from different countries, and results that varied widely.

This last point is important because it shows that there's no vanilla Islam religion that you can tag as being "the Muslim world" really, any more than you can talk about "the Christian world". Unless you're just trying to group people together to denigrate them. You have evidence to do that, but to what end ?

Weasel words? Perhaps you could share your thoughts on mass murder of Christians, I'm getting curious.

My thoughts are about making broad statements on a religion that sweeps cultures, based on the crimes of ISIS. I can say that there are more Muslim countries with atrocities, limited rights, etc. etc. but assigning anything like "blame" puts somebody on a moral pedestal that is impossible to defend.

Weasel words like "many" mean... nothing. How many is many ? I have, in the past, tried to pin people down as to what constitutes immoral behavior by a group (ie. how many angels can dance on the head of a pin) and (understandably) the conversation didn't progress.

I also find it rather convenient that Marcus seems unaware of this Al Jazeera poll. Picking and choosing news events as usual.

Convenient ? That's a strange word to use since you just posted it. We were talking about the (apparently faulted) polls Argus posted.

Actually, I'll help you out some more: here's one of the Pew polls.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/pg-2014-07-01-islamic-extremism-10/

You'll see that suicide bombing is Often/Sometimes justified according to a high of 62% of Gaza Muslims, to a low of 3% of Pakistani Muslims. Now, if you want to condemn Muslims in general (looks like maybe 20-30% say it's sometimes justified) based on this viewpoint then you might be asked about the morality of other groups that you're not singling out.

That's usually how the discussion starts.

[sharkman]

Michael, how dare you smear me by claiming I'm talking about the "Muslim" world. It appears all you're interested in doing is being a troll, I'll go back to ignoring you.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael, how dare you smear me by claiming I'm talking about the "Muslim" world. It appears all you're interested in doing is being a troll, I'll go back to ignoring you.

Hmmmm.... what ? See the title of this thread ?

[sharkman]

Edit: Never mind. I don't want to be sucked, troll like, into whatever it is you're attempting.

Edited May 28, 2015 by sharkman

[Argus]

Why not ? Why do you get to decide that North Amercians aren't part of the Muslim world ? We've gone down this path so many times... what is the purpose of this discussion if you're going to pick and choose the people that are hypocrites first, then put them in the group that YOU call the 'Muslim World'.

I would not say North Americans should be excluded from 'the muslim world' but on the other hand, most people don't include them. The 'Muslim world" is generally considered to be the members of the Islamic Block, 60 something countries which are majority Muslim.

But let's grant you that North American Muslims tend to be more liberal than Muslims elsewhere. That leads us to an interesting question. Why? After all, our Muslims came from those Muslim countries. And they did not by and large, come here to cast aside the retrograde cultures of their homelands but for economic improvement. Muslims who went to Europe retained much more of those retrograde cultural values than the ones in North American do, which again leads to the question of why the ones here are more liberal.

I put it to you that the main reason is that Europe greeted their Muslim immigrants with all the respect and inclusiveness we would expect from left leaning government agencies. Not only were the newcomers assured that their cultures were every bit as good as anyone elses, but encouraged to keep them up. They were promised the undying respect for their differences, which was enforced by laws which made it illegal to criticize them or insult them.

The result is that they did exactly what they were encouraged to do. Many of them are no more British French or Swedish than their parents or grandparents, feeling more kinship for the lands of their ancestors, and for the social and cultural mores popular there, than the places they now live. Massive numbers of French and British Muslims support ISIS, rather than their own governments, and are hostile and contemptuous of their national cultures and values.

If the NDP - the ideological cousins of those governments in power in Europe - had been in power here I doubt Canadian Muslims would have integrated to the degree they did. It was people telling them their retrograde social beliefs were dumb and unacceptable which helped accomplish what respect and inclusiveness would not. In other words, it was certainly not people like you and Jacee and Cyber who are responsible for the comparative liberalism of Canadian Muslims. No, it was the conservatives who accomplished that much.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

But let's grant you that North American Muslims tend to be more liberal than Muslims elsewhere. That leads us to an interesting question. Why?

Yes. This seems like a good area for discussion.

....which again leads to the question of why the ones here are more liberal.

I have a few theories:

1) A place like Canada was not only built on immigration, but on a truce, however uneasy, between 3 dominant cultures at the outset.

2) Life in this America in general is about work, not about ones status or pedigree

3) We have fewer barriers to social movement, improvement, and economic well being

I put it to you that the main reason is that Europe greeted their Muslim immigrants with all the respect and inclusiveness we would expect from left leaning government agencies. Not only were the newcomers assured that their cultures were every bit as good as anyone elses, but encouraged to keep them up. They were promised the undying respect for their differences, which was enforced by laws which made it illegal to criticize them or insult them.

I disagree, but it's a paradox. European governments, though left-leaning, are less open to immigrants.

Actually, I can't say that for sure, but I can say from the perspective of someone who lived in France, there's an open expectation that you "convert" to French culture. And, yes, they are more leftist there and talk a good game about inclusiveness but in fact economic pragmatism leads to more openness than static centralized economies as they have in Europe.

This discussion is less about political dogmas, which is a relief, and more about the outcomes of economic and cultural policies towards immigrants.

Do you see/agree with what I'm saying here ?

Massive numbers of French and British Muslims support ISIS, rather than their own governments, and are hostile and contemptuous of their national cultures and values.

Cite please....

The French Muslims I knew were not French, but not really Muslim anymore either. They were more tied to the local culture than any phantom "national" culture, just as Canadian immigrants are likely more Torontoized than Canadian.

If the NDP - the ideological cousins of those governments in power in Europe - had been in power here I doubt Canadian Muslims would have integrated to the degree they did.

Well, try to get an immigrant into a union and you can see a bit of the problem.

In other words, it was certainly not people like you and Jacee and Cyber who are responsible for the comparative liberalism of Canadian Muslims. No, it was the conservatives who accomplished that much.

Your problem is in labeling people into groups: me, Jaycee, Cyber, and Muslims. You think I'm left-of-centre but I'm pretty pro-business, and pro-trade as far as these things go. You're ostensibly conservative but you write pro-union things, I think.

Binary thinking puts everything on a checkerboard...

[Black Dog]

I put it to you that the main reason is that Europe greeted their Muslim immigrants with all the respect and inclusiveness we would expect from left leaning government agencies. Not only were the newcomers assured that their cultures were every bit as good as anyone elses, but encouraged to keep them up. They were promised the undying respect for their differences, which was enforced by laws which made it illegal to criticize them or insult them.

This is a complete myth, one you've continued to push without a solitary shred of evidence to back it up. You've certainly never named any longstanding policies that would actually have contributed this and you've steadfastly ignored the fact that these nations are mostly either indifferent (in the case of Germany, which assumed all the Turks would just go home someday) or outright hostile (as in France, a robustly secular state that is notoriously hostile to outsiders) to immigrants.

An example.

Germany's policy toward its immigrants and their descendants has made an about-face since the turn of the millennium. Even through the beginning of the 1990s, that policy revolved largely around the expectation that guest workers would return home. Prominent right-leaning politicians such as Chancellor Helmut Kohl made a mantra out of saying that Germany was not a land of immigration. Government policies focused on the "return readiness" of guest workers, which meant that little emphasis was placed on language training, and in the 1980s guest workers and their families were offered cash to return to their country of origin. German-born children of guest workers were often ineligible for citizenship, resulting in a generation of foreigners born and raised in Germany.

...

Multikulti has often been defined as the promotion of separate cultural identities, be they religious or ethnic, within a single society, leading to the creation of what are sometimes called parallel societies, in which immigrants live cloistered from the rest of society and suffer from higher than average unemployement, higher school dropout rates, and for some disaffected Muslim youth, the lure of radical Islam. But parallel societies have come into being in Germany not because of active promotion of cultural difference but because of a decades-long lack of coherent policy when it came to the role of immigration.

Merkel's and Seehofer's declarations about the failure of Multikulti ring hollow because the German state has never adopted an intentional policy of multiculturalism in the first place.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Black Dog

[BubberMiley]

Edit: Never mind. I don't want to be sucked, troll like, into whatever it is you're attempting.

I think it's called a discussion. But you've made it clear many times you aren't interested in that.

[Rue]

Bubber once again in your last comment trying to bait Sharkman you are not interested in discussion either. The very point of your last comment was to do what you do, bait people with a little barb with no position you present. Its what you do on this forum and some of us feel its not discussion but an exercise in passive aggressive behaviour where when you see someone defending their position you don't agree with, you throw out a little insult through a barb.

Go on Bubber,do you even know what the point was Shark and MichaelH were debating? Of course not. You could care less. You just wanted to needle the Shark. Butt out and let them deal with their dispute unless you actually have a position you wish to discuss.

Yes Bubber we all get it-now move on with your little barbs and discuss the issues. You don't get to come on this board telling anyone they won' t discuss positions when you manifest not only will you not, but you have no clue to express anything but a barb.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Rue

[cybercoma]

Oh good. I was hoping there would be another thread for crapping on Muslims. There hadn't been one in something like a few days.

[Canada_First]

I actually helped out YOUR side in the debate in my post above. The "good" poll that I read had polls from different countries, and results that varied widely.

This last point is important because it shows that there's no vanilla Islam religion that you can tag as being "the Muslim world" really, any more than you can talk about "the Christian world". Unless you're just trying to group people together to denigrate them. You have evidence to do that, but to what end ?

My thoughts are about making broad statements on a religion that sweeps cultures, based on the crimes of ISIS. I can say that there are more Muslim countries with atrocities, limited rights, etc. etc. but assigning anything like "blame" puts somebody on a moral pedestal that is impossible to defend.

Weasel words like "many" mean... nothing. How many is many ? I have, in the past, tried to pin people down as to what constitutes immoral behavior by a group (ie. how many angels can dance on the head of a pin) and (understandably) the conversation didn't progress.

Convenient ? That's a strange word to use since you just posted it. We were talking about the (apparently faulted) polls Argus posted.

Actually, I'll help you out some more: here's one of the Pew polls.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/pg-2014-07-01-islamic-extremism-10/

You'll see that suicide bombing is Often/Sometimes justified according to a high of 62% of Gaza Muslims, to a low of 3% of Pakistani Muslims. Now, if you want to condemn Muslims in general (looks like maybe 20-30% say it's sometimes justified) based on this viewpoint then you might be asked about the morality of other groups that you're not singling out.

That's usually how the discussion starts.

So, on this forum it's expected that no poster use the term "many" or any word other than an exact number that is accounted for by a reputable cite. Do that or it's not real. Is that what you are meaning to say? Everything in the world has a cite or it's not real? How can one be expected to find a cite for every single thing they ever say on a forum? Wouldn't that practice make the forum move really slowly? I'm just curious here as I'm new.

Thanks in advance. Ciao.