Are Fire Fighters wasting our money?

[overthere]

It can be a dangerous job, but the pay and benefits are excellent.

I had occasion to do business with a bunch of firefighters last year.

It was instructive to learn that a majority had another job. Most were involved in either building, renovations or property services. Two were general contractors renovating/building houses and one of those was a significant builder doing about a dozen new homes per year. Others had businesses like grounds maintenance, building decks, roofing courier services and so on. They worked together and that was ideal, they know their schedules well in advance, get big chunks of time off and can plan work around it.

[GostHacked]

But they don't fill those two roles. People who want to be firefighters take paramedic training because it looks good on their resume.

Certain firefighters need paramedic training. Many do as they are the first on the scene of an accident long before the ambulance shows up. Airport firefighters get paramedic training and it should be obvious as to why.

[peoples advocate]

On ‎2015‎-‎05‎-‎07 at 8:09 AM, Boges said:

http://www.am980.ca/2015/05/07/firefighters-study-fraser/

 

We could argue the same thing about Cops and Teachers. But Fire Fighters are the most obvious example because they work like 7 days a month and fires aren't exactly that common.

Chances are, if you call for an ambulance you'll get a rire truck first. Not because you asked for a fire truck but because response times dictate that they have to be X-distance away from any given property. So they can always beat the ambulance. And they need something to do.

Sure we need firefighters but their role needs to be modified. They need to be merged with Ambulance services so that Paramedics can achieve the same response time.

Their hour structure is also ridiculous. Working 24-hours over 7 days is not a shift if you're sleeping a good portion of that time.

But again it's a public service union so any attempt to fix the problems will be met with merciless fear mongering.

I have an Idea why not go to the old volunteer way of fire fighting and you sign up for the first 24 hour shift . I think you should all so  get a scanner and report to car crash sites to be the first to deal with the carnage . I think people that read an article and act as though they are the person who wrote said article should educate themselves before making statements that make them look stupid.

[peoples advocate]

I read on this board lots of opinions but I wonder how many of you have actually taken the time over the last month to write your M.P. about your concerns.

[peoples advocate]

 I get a point for personal attack well I am truly sorry but an idiot is an idiot.

[Argus]

17 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

 I get a point for personal attack well I am truly sorry but an idiot is an idiot.

What was idiotic about the comment? Maybe you should try and explain why you feel the comment doesn't make sense - which is called debating or discussing something -  rather than calling something idiotic with no further explanation.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Argus

[peoples advocate]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

What was idiotic about the comment? Maybe you should try and explain why you feel the comment doesn't make sense - which is called debating or discussing something -  rather than calling something idiotic with no further explanation.

ok let me try for one thing fires may be down but the ones they have are worse then before , They deal with not just fires but Hazardous waste , Meth labs , Car crashes that are a lot more in number now and injuries are a lot worse where people are in need of extraction , Firefighters are trained first responders as well and they just do not sit around all day as you would have people think.

 I do not think that you are being clear on facts yes they work 24 hours and that equates to three days for the average guy some days they get no sleep. After working 24 hours they are off for 72 hours and then back for 24 hours so that works out to 24 hours work every 4 days they work a total of 2,190 hours per year  average person works 2,080 hours a first class fireman makes $ 84,000 per year that works out to $ 38.00 per hour so lets get some perspective here my friend they go in to burning buildings when you are running out , They are first on the scene of accidents to see the mangled bodies , They work with out the newest equipment because government thinks it is too expensive then they have to get those pictures out of their minds and go home to family and friends.

 You say what about our military well lets see they as a whole in this country do not face the same everyday peril most never ever go to war but the ones who do should be compensated for it.

 Arm chair critics do not understand what these men in Fire department , Military and police go through so until they do they need to remain quiet.

 

[Argus]

2 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

ok let me try for one thing fires may be down but the ones they have are worse then before , They deal with not just fires but Hazardous waste , Meth labs , Car crashes that are a lot more in number now and injuries are a lot worse where people are in need of extraction ,

There is no evidence to support any of that. Nor is it relevant. As an employer, you only need to pay as much as necessary to recruit a sufficient number of qualified employees. We could cut the salaries of firefighters in half and have no difficulty recruiting more than enough qualified employees.

2 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

Firefighters are trained first responders as well and they just do not sit around all day as you would have people think.

I see firefighters most often at the local grocery store, with their truck parked out front while they shop for groceries. Forgive me for wondering why we're paying them so much to shop at the grocery store. What do they do during their shifts when there are no calls? They sit around watching TV. They sleep. They cook meals and eat. They shower and shave. And they get paid for all of this. Oh, they also mop the floors, clean the toilets and clean their trucks. We should not be paying people $95k a year to do janitorial work.

Yes, they also do some training. But much of their paid time is wasted.

2 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

 I do not think that you are being clear on facts yes they work 24 hours and that equates to three days for the average guy some days they get no sleep.

Some days? How many days? Once or twice a year, maybe?

2 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

You say what about our military well lets see they as a whole in this country do not face the same everyday peril most never ever go to war but the ones who do should be compensated for it.

They are handsomely compensated for a job which, despite the occasional drama and excitement, has never been particularly dangerous. You want a dangerous job? Try taxi driver, or roofer, or farmer or fisherman or logger.

2 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

 Arm chair critics do not understand what these men in Fire department , Military and police go through so until they do they need to remain quiet.

It doesn't matter what they go through. Nobody forces them to take or keep the job. In fact, they try very, very, very hard to get the job, knowing full well what it involves. And I'm footing the bill, so I have a perfect right to my opinion.

[peoples advocate]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

There is no evidence to support any of that. Nor is it relevant. As an employer, you only need to pay as much as necessary to recruit a sufficient number of qualified employees. We could cut the salaries of firefighters in half and have no difficulty recruiting more than enough qualified employees.

I see firefighters most often at the local grocery store, with their truck parked out front while they shop for groceries. Forgive me for wondering why we're paying them so much to shop at the grocery store. What do they do during their shifts when there are no calls? They sit around watching TV. They sleep. They cook meals and eat. They shower and shave. And they get paid for all of this. Oh, they also mop the floors, clean the toilets and clean their trucks. We should not be paying people $95k a year to do janitorial work.

Yes, they also do some training. But much of their paid time is wasted.

Some days? How many days? Once or twice a year, maybe?

They are handsomely compensated for a job which, despite the occasional drama and excitement, has never been particularly dangerous. You want a dangerous job? Try taxi driver, or roofer, or farmer or fisherman or logger.

It doesn't matter what they go through. Nobody forces them to take or keep the job. In fact, they try very, very, very hard to get the job, knowing full well what it involves. And I'm footing the bill, so I have a perfect right to my opinion.

I think when some people have a thought pattern it is a waste of time to explain facts because they do not understand facts only perceptions that they have acquired over time. So lets agree that you are wrong and we will not mention it again.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

I think when some people have a thought pattern it is a waste of time to explain facts because they do not understand facts only perceptions that they have acquired over time. So lets agree that you are wrong and we will not mention it again.

In order to explain facts one must be in possession of some - and your argument points to a decided lack of such facts on your part. Your argument boils down to "Firefighters are brave! Let's pay them whatever they want!" That is not an argument of any substance. It is nothing but the emotional response of watching dramatic movies and TV shows.

[peoples advocate]

56 minutes ago, Argus said:

In order to explain facts one must be in possession of some - and your argument points to a decided lack of such facts on your part. Your argument boils down to "Firefighters are brave! Let's pay them whatever they want!" That is not an argument of any substance. It is nothing but the emotional response of watching dramatic movies and TV shows.

Really it would seem this time you are the one lacking the facts I think you should be a little more knowledgeable before you talk . When you talk with such erroneous misleading info as you do a lot . you lose credibility . I would make the suggestion that you do not believe everything you read and actually get off your ass and investigate. But wait that is the meaning of work and you would not do that it is easier to quote someone you do not know to make yourself seem all knowing. I feel bad for you . Have a good day of reading  

[Argus]

3 hours ago, peoples advocate said:

Really it would seem this time you are the one lacking the facts I think you should be a little more knowledgeable before you talk . When you talk with such erroneous misleading info as you do a lot . you lose credibility . I would make the suggestion that you do not believe everything you read and actually get off your ass and investigate. But wait that is the meaning of work and you would not do that it is easier to quote someone you do not know to make yourself seem all knowing. I feel bad for you . Have a good day of reading  

And once again, all you have is a sort of whiny complaint that I've disagreed with you. Yet you are unable to bring up any logical inconsistencies in my statements and simply resort to what reads very much like sulky pouting. I think you should change your name as you really aren't very good at advocating.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Argus

[Tribal_wayz]

On ‎2015‎-‎05‎-‎25 at 1:44 PM, overthere said:

It can be a dangerous job, but the pay and benefits are excellent.

I had occasion to do business with a bunch of firefighters last year.

It was instructive to learn that a majority had another job. Most were involved in either building, renovations or property services. Two were general contractors renovating/building houses and one of those was a significant builder doing about a dozen new homes per year. Others had businesses like grounds maintenance, building decks, roofing courier services and so on. They worked together and that was ideal, they know their schedules well in advance, get big chunks of time off and can plan work around it.

They have so much free time and so well funded they are taking jobs away from private contractors.

~50% - of the municipal budget goes to edu. 

~10% - policing

~6% - "fire fighting" etc.

`33% - garbage pickup, seware maintenance, water treatment, road building, infrastructure improvements .... everything else.

it's unconscionable that our politicians let an incredibly small but powerful clique gets all the benefits and no downside. We should consider ending this insanity.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Tribal_wayz
Corrected some figures.

[PIK]

On 5/8/2015 at 2:40 PM, Smallc said:

They don't get the same pay.

Yes the do. In my small town with 8000 people and the captain was paid 140gs last yr.

[GostHacked]

On 10/21/2017 at 9:02 PM, Argus said:

There is no evidence to support any of that. Nor is it relevant. As an employer, you only need to pay as much as necessary to recruit a sufficient number of qualified employees. We could cut the salaries of firefighters in half and have no difficulty recruiting more than enough qualified employees.

IF you want to keep recruiting keep paying them the minimum. Pay them what they are worth and you will have a work force that sticks around for the long run.

On 10/21/2017 at 9:02 PM, Argus said:

I see firefighters most often at the local grocery store, with their truck parked out front while they shop for groceries. Forgive me for wondering why we're paying them so much to shop at the grocery store. What do they do during their shifts when there are no calls? They sit around watching TV. They sleep. They cook meals and eat. They shower and shave. And they get paid for all of this. Oh, they also mop the floors, clean the toilets and clean their trucks. We should not be paying people $95k a year to do janitorial work.

Well, they cannot exactly take their car. They are on call all the time, this is why there they go, the truck goes too.  And as for the sitting around part, a good deal of them are always working out and doing training exercises to keep them at the top of their game. Also a clean and organized fire hall is essential. So things get cleaned and equipment gets the proper maintenance.

On 10/21/2017 at 9:02 PM, Argus said:

Yes, they also do some training. But much of their paid time is wasted.

Wrong. That one time you need your ass extracted from a vehicle would be worth quite a lot.

On 10/21/2017 at 9:02 PM, Argus said:

They are handsomely compensated for a job which, despite the occasional drama and excitement, has never been particularly dangerous. You want a dangerous job? Try taxi driver, or roofer, or farmer or fisherman or logger.

Fighting fires is not dangerous?

On 10/21/2017 at 9:02 PM, Argus said:

It doesn't matter what they go through. Nobody forces them to take or keep the job. In fact, they try very, very, very hard to get the job, knowing full well what it involves. And I'm footing the bill, so I have a perfect right to my opinion.

Look at it like insurance. You don't want to pay into it, but you are glad it's there when you really really need it. My pal is a firefighter at the airport, most of his calls are medical. He has actually saved lives. And the couple times where planes went off the runway, he's right there to help extract your ass from the plane and get you to a safe place.

Public emergency service people need to be paid well.  But if you want to reduce there, then we should reduce medic and police pay as well.

[Argus]

5 hours ago, GostHacked said:

IF you want to keep recruiting keep paying them the minimum. Pay them what they are worth and you will have a work force that sticks around for the long run.

This is a job that people VOLUNTEER to do because it's so exciting. We don't need to pay people $100k to do it.

5 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Fighting fires is not dangerous?

Not nearly as dangerous as being a roofer or a taxi driver.

5 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Look at it like insurance. You don't want to pay into it, but you are glad it's there when you really really need it. My pal is a firefighter at the airport, most of his calls are medical. He has actually saved lives.

That's another problem with the fire department. Most of their calls could be handled by two guys in a van better than five guys in a giant truck. We should amalgamate the fire department with paramedics, as they do in a number of US cities.

5 hours ago, GostHacked said:

Public emergency service people need to be paid well.  But if you want to reduce there, then we should reduce medic and police pay as well.

I'm fine with that. And I'm not saying they shouldn't be paid well, just that they don't need to be paid THAT well. Why does a cop or firefighter in a small town in northern Ontario make more money than a cop or firefighter in New York city, London England or Paris France?

[Tribal_wayz]

It seems some drink the Statist cool aid.

NPR (National Public Radio) did a study in the US about how dangerous firefighting is. They concluded it is less dangerous than working the nightshift at a convenience store, but with two qualifiers:

1. Four out of five firefighters nationwide are overweight or obese, and roughly half of all firefighters who die in the line of duty each year are killed by heart attacks.  https://extremephysiolmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2046-7648-2-6

2. Since until recently firefighters weren't required to use safety belts, traffic deaths that resulted from not wearing safety belts were not considered job related. You can see the study here: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/01/08/168897140/the-deadliest-jobs-in-america-in-one-graphic  firefighters fall under the nation average in dangerous occupations.

It's unfortunate that so many citizens are so poorly informed.

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Tribal_wayz said:

firefighters fall under the nation average in dangerous occupations.

Great.  Do police now.

[bush_cheney2004]

17 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Great.  Do police now.

 

Sure....police in the United States....like firefighters....much easier to get data than in Canada.

[Argus]

36 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Great.  Do police now.

Not much need. We know neither it nor firefighting is among the more dangerous of professions.

These are the most dangerous occupations in Canada.

1. Loggers: falling trees, cutting equipment.

2. Fisheries workers: drowning, heavy equipment.

3. Pilots and flight engineers: air disturbances, high altitudes, takeoffs and landings.

4. Roofers: falling from heights, heat stroke in summer.

5. Structural iron and steel workers: falling from heights, heavy materials, welding.

6. Garbage and recyclables collectors: hazardous materials, heavy equipment, road accidents.

7. Electrical power line installers and repairers: electricity, falling from heights.

8. Truck drivers and mobile sales workers: road accidents, exhaustion.

9. Farmers, ranchers, agricultural managers: heavy equipment, large animals.

10. Construction workers: dangerous equipment and large animals.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/and-the-top-10-most-dangerous-jobs-are/article16352517/

[Michael Hardner]

42 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

.much easier to get data than in Canada.

But Argus got the info from a Canadian paper and posted it on a Canadian website.  So there you go.

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

But Argus got the info from a Canadian paper and posted it on a Canadian website.  So there you go.

 

Impressive....there must be fifty ways to import American data to discuss government policy in Canada.

 

[Michael Hardner]

14 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Impressive....there must be fifty ways to import American data to discuss government policy in Canada.

Paul Simon's final tour kicks off.... in Canada.

[GostHacked]

20 hours ago, Argus said:

This is a job that people VOLUNTEER to do because it's so exciting. We don't need to pay people $100k to do it.

Not nearly as dangerous as being a roofer or a taxi driver.

That's another problem with the fire department. Most of their calls could be handled by two guys in a van better than five guys in a giant truck. We should amalgamate the fire department with paramedics, as they do in a number of US cities.

I agree, combine the two, but for crash scenes the fire trucks also act as barriers to protect the crew on the scene.

20 hours ago, Argus said:

I'm fine with that. And I'm not saying they shouldn't be paid well, just that they don't need to be paid THAT well. Why does a cop or firefighter in a small town in northern Ontario make more money than a cop or firefighter in New York city, London England or Paris France?

You can make that argument for any line of work.

[Argus]

24 minutes ago, GostHacked said:

I agree, combine the two, but for crash scenes the fire trucks also act as barriers to protect the crew on the scene.

You can make that argument for any line of work.

Yeah? Do our construction workers make more than the ones in New York, London and Paris? Do our doctors? Our lawyers? Our architects? Do our fast food cooks and waiters make more than the ones in New York, London and Paris? You realize the cost of living in New York, Paris and London is way higher than in Timmins or Sudbury, right? 

The only people we have who make more in small town Ontario than in NYC, Paris and London are government employees. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Argus