In defence of the 'F' word

[Michael Hardner]

Maybe that's just a saying...

[WestCoastRunner]

Maybe that's just a saying...

How about more than yesterday or last year or 5 years ago. Does it really matter? Do you want a line carved in the sand?

[-1=e^ipi]

It's 2014 and old white men are still trying to write laws to control women's bodies!

It's 2015 and older females are still trying to tell me that I should be discriminated against for my sex because of stuff that occurred before I was born.

Edited April 5, 2015 by -1=e^ipi

[-1=e^ipi]

unless there is some disagreement of how being a feminist is defined.

Of course there is disagreement of how feminism is defined. It can mean anything from gender egalitarianism to misandric hate ideology.

[WestCoastRunner]

At its core, feminism is the fundamental belief that men and women should have equal opportunities to pursue their dreams.

[WestCoastRunner]

It's 2015 and older females are still trying to tell me that I should be discriminated against for my sex because of stuff that occurred before I was born.

Older females? Nice try but not true.

[Smallc]

At its core, feminism is the fundamental belief that men and women should have equal opportunities to pursue their dreams.

And yet so many advocate for equality of outcome.

[WestCoastRunner]

And yet so many advocate for equality of outcome.

Care to elaborate? It's hard to debate something so elusive.

Edited April 5, 2015 by WestCoastRunner

[Smallc]

Care to elaborate? It's hard to debate something so elusive.

You don't seem to think it's enough for women to have the same opportunity, but rather, you want them to have the same outcome as men, even if that outcome has to be artificial.

[-1=e^ipi]

You don't seem to think it's enough for women to have the same opportunity, but rather, you want them to have the same outcome as men, even if that outcome has to be artificial.

Same outcome? You really think mainstream feminists want same outcome in suicide rates, life expectancy, homelessness or workplace deaths?

[Smallc]

Same outcome? You really think mainstream feminists want same outcome in suicide rates, life expectancy, homelessness or workplace deaths?

Sorry, I should have clarified. Equality of outcome...by only positive metrics.

[cybercoma]

I recall my father telling me stories about the "Roaring Twenties" and the reaction of outrage that the "flappers" were able to create. I suggest that these were the original feminists, drinking, dancing, wearing makeup and voting. They were the in-your-face advocates who started the women's liberation movement with a bang!

Some call this a rebellion instead of liberation but they sure got people to think differently - and then the men came back from war. Lots did not and this imbalance ... well, that is for another day.

First Wave Feminism began long before the flappers of the Roaring Twenties. It goes back to the suffragettes of the 19th century, who were also heavily involved in prohibition up here in Canada.

[cybercoma]

You don't seem to think it's enough for women to have the same opportunity, but rather, you want them to have the same outcome as men, even if that outcome has to be artificial.

Right. Because outcomes now are so "natural."

[WIP]

You are right to be cynical about 'girl power' and all that it entailed with celebs, but we do have a new movement growing with current celebs continuing the push for equal rights for women.

"Emma Watson made that September speech to the United Nations about feminism and has been watched millions of times. The hack of emails at Sony Pictures revealed pervasive Hollywood gender wage gaps. And then there was Patricia Arquette's recent Oscar acceptance speech for her role as a struggling single mom in "Boyhood." She took to the podium, calling out for equal pay and rights for women in the United States, and inspired a social media frenzy -- not to mention enthusiastic cheers from Meryl Streep. In a backstage interview, Arquette specifically raised the need for the constitutional amendment."

Yes of course, concerned celebrities can be a lot of help bringing attention to any positive change movement, because our media is celebrity-oriented, and unless someone they consider important is saying it, it doesn't get heard!

The problem is that most entertainment celebrities are artists/not scholars...Emma Watson being an exception. So, in the cause of global feminism, Emma Watson can be a huge win, because not only will what she says be heard in the media, she has the education, and it seems the analytical mind to deal with questions afterwards. But most artists are not analysts or philosophers, and do their best work reaching us on an emotional level with their work. An artist doesn't necessarily have a clear presentation of an issue....it would be the exception to the rule.

So, after Patricia Arquette uses her unexpected Oscar win to give attention to the ERA...which can still easily be ratified in the U.S. if there is enough people making an effort to do it, she phrases the final portion of her exhortation comparing the need for the ERA with the women who worked for the Civil Rights Act and for same-sex marriage rights today as sort of 'women have worked to help get these things passed, gays&minorities help women get the ERA ratified finally.' And I know that's not the exact quote, but I understood her statement as trying to get men, especially those men who have benefited from the previous civil rights wins, to help in the effort to ratify the ERA. But, what happened afterwards? Maybe it's all this crap that has been made possible by new internet social media, but Patricia Arquette's words are placed under the microscope by internet liberal activists (obviously trying to raise hits for their sites) start attacking her as "erasing their intersections, and not understanding 'intersectionality.' And most of us just go "WTF is intersectionality" while many of the popular sites on the American left, including feminist sites are embroiled with Arquette and whether or not she erased 'intersections,' and the whole point she was trying to make about the need for the ERA is completely lost in the process.

And , I don't fault Patricia Arquette for what happened; she was trying her best to get an issue she considers very important back in the media spotlight. But this is what happens when getting an issue to the table is placed on the shoulders of an artist who has media access/but does not have expertise on a subject or practice at public speaking or debating.

[WIP]

What about all the feminist pro-life organizations? I do not believe that being pro-life discounts someone from being a feminist - unless there is some disagreement of how being a feminist is defined.

How many feminist pro "life" organizations are there? Past stats I read a few years ago on this subject indicate that most of the anti-abortion organizations are run by men/not women. And most women who describe themselves as pro life are religious conservatives who have bought into all that human life begins at conception b.s..

Any real feminists I'm sure have long ago realized that the so called concern for life is only a tactic to reduce the power of women by returning to the old standards before birth control and abortion were available....where pregnancy and raising children were pretty much a given part of being married. The conservative religious patriarchs from all religions- Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. are all in agreement with each other that women should not have control over whether or not they get pregnant or how many children to have.

Overpopulation alone, should have been enough of an issue to kick the old patriarchs and their 3000 year old notions of fertility back to where they came from, but instead they have been trying to re-impose the old rules and standards on a world that doesn't have the resources or the ecological sinks to support the present population. Just for that even by itself, I believe that women should have the ultimate determining power to decide birth control or decide whether or not to have an abortion.....married or not!

Edited April 7, 2015 by WIP

[WIP]

Same outcome? You really think mainstream feminists want same outcome in suicide rates, life expectancy, homelessness or workplace deaths?

If you go to the stats compiled in recent years by epidemiologists - Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett at the Equality Trust site, you'll find that the avaricious capitalism you are so enthralled with, is the underlying cause of high suicide rates and the other mental health issues.....notice you didn't mention depression there.....could be because women go into treatment for depression at higher rates than men do; so stress rises to the surface in different ways, but both men and women are impacted by the stresses of modern day life.

[-1=e^ipi]

you'll find that the avaricious capitalism you are so enthralled with

Strawman argument.

notice you didn't mention depression there

Yes, that was clearly intentional. I also didn't mention kittens. Therefore, I must hate kittens. *sarcasm*

could be because women go into treatment for depression at higher rates than men do

And the rate at which males seek help relative to females might have something to do with social conditioning and gender roles.

[bush_cheney2004]

...So, after Patricia Arquette uses her unexpected Oscar win to give attention to the ERA...which can still easily be ratified in the U.S. ...

No, the ERA constitutional amendment process ran its course in the late 1970's and early 1980's. The process would require a new effort, state by state. Feminist issues do not begin or end in the United States.

[Mighty AC]

Tim Minchin, one of my favourite comedians, wrote a song that accurately sums up my views on feminism and nearly every thought I have.

I believe that women have the right

To walk the streets at night
And not be afraid for their lives
I believe that a woman has the right
To choose what happens to her body
Without suffering the judgement
Of the conservative right

And I believe that women have the right
to wear the clothes they like
Without being treated like dirt
And I believe we men are pathetic
how we seem to judge aesthetic
As the measure of a woman's worth
I'm ashamed on behalf of my sex
For making women feel like objects

F*#k I love boobs though

[-1=e^ipi]

Thank you for your heteronormative and misandric view point A/C. *sarcasm*

[Mighty AC]

I suppose someone with a heteronormative world view would also find movement one of that song to be misandric. I guess, the stereotypical heteronormative, misogynistic, conservative would be outraged by all three movements and also everything Minchin has ever written.

[-1=e^ipi]

@ A/C - The song generalizes men (especially how they view women) and suggests that all men are pathetic. It is heteronormative and misandric.

Edited April 14, 2015 by -1=e^ipi

[Mighty AC]

The song is from the point of view of a heterosexual, but that doesn't make it heteronormative. Also being critical of, or apologetic for male actions doesn't make it misandric; a word reserved for hatred or strong dislike of men.

Do you not think a significant portion of men "judge the aesthetic as the measure of a woman's worth" or treat women like objects? I think too many of us do. I like the juxtaposition between the wish for equality and fair treatment with those ever present thoughts of sex.

[-1=e^ipi]

Let's see, it says "men are pathetic". It doesn't say some men to imply that the singer is not referring to all men.

Then it goes on to say how 'men' judge aesthetic as a measure of a women's worth. The singer is then ashamed on 'behalf of' his sex. What gives the singer the right to represent half the world's population?

The song is clearly heteronormative and ignores the existence of non-heterosexual males. It also demonizes an entire sex by generalizing it, thus misandric.

[RB]

Oh dear I was making a comment on this thread but lost the post.

There is much work to do with this unbalance equation when it comes to wealth as in pay, and women being exploited (domestic abuse, cyberbullying (new)) and other in the list

I read the opening topic area and the small list and glad the area is being explored at this level.

Edited April 25, 2015 by RB