Finland To Scrap Subjects in Education

[GostHacked]

I've been to many conferences over the years and I read many educational research papers. I am a life long learner. You haven't even heard of many educational initiatives. I would put you into the camp with other educational relics; stuck in the past, unaware that we are living in the 21st century.

We are preparing kids for jobs that don't yet exist. Does that make sense to you?

You are still a learner and yet to become a teacher. That much I am sure of.

[Mighty AC]

There are plenty of crazies in the US and a few in Canada and some do homeschool. Overall the 2.2 million North American homeschoolers are very diverse. Yes I did challenge the way that you stereotyped all homeschoolers with those crazy beliefs. It is similar to people stereotyping Muslims as misogynist, and supporting of terrorism and Sharia Law.

When so many home school their children to cloister them and cement the indoctrination process the practice is bound to attract scorn and ridicule. It appears that in time the crazies will no longer be a majority and then maybe the reputation will improve.

Yes, this seems obvious. I wonder if Guyser2 will recognize his earlier misjudgements?

Guyser2 is right that test scores most likely overestimate the educational abilities of home school students. You should keep in mind that those same kids would excel in the public school system as well. Families that choose to home school are wealthier, whiter and more English speaking than those in public schools. Catholic school students in Ontario achieve higher average test scores for the same reasons. Stronger language skills provide obvious advantages and more affluent parents place higher value on education. Higher socioeconomic status provides advantages in all areas of life.

[carepov]

When so many home school their children to cloister them and cement the indoctrination process the practice is bound to attract scorn and ridicule. It appears that in time the crazies will no longer be a majority and then maybe the reputation will improve.

I still disagree that a majority of US homeschoolers are crazies because not all evangelicals are "crazies", but leaving that aside: it is unfair to at least 1,000,000 North American homeschoolers to be tagged/smeared with a reputations and beliefs that you so vehemently espoused in the first post I responded to. Scorn and ridicule such as yours are counter-productive to improving education and society. Thankfully messages like yours are being refuted and more families are reaping the rewards of homeschooling, like these ones:

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/02/the-rise-of-homeschooling-among-black-families/385543/

Guyser2 is right that test scores most likely overestimate the educational abilities of home school students. You should keep in mind that those same kids would excel in the public school system as well. Families that choose to home school are wealthier, whiter and more English speaking than those in public schools. Catholic school students in Ontario achieve higher average test scores for the same reasons. Stronger language skills provide obvious advantages and more affluent parents place higher value on education. Higher socioeconomic status provides advantages in all areas of life.

Yes, in some studies, including the HSLDA study, homeschooling scores are overestimated since they did not control for socio-economic factors.

Guyser2 is claiming more than that though: "Pretty much every other impartial test suggests that most homeschoolers are not getting the best education , and plenty of the parents refuse to have their kids tested."

The only study he did provide, that did attempt to control for socio-economic factors, concluded the opposite of his own claim:

"Overall, the structured homeschooling group performed much better than the public school group. And the margin was pretty dramatic.

In 5 of 7 test areas, (word identification, phonic decoding, science, social science, humanities) structured homeschoolers were at least one grade level ahead of public schoolers."

[guyser]

Yes, this seems obvious. I wonder if Guyser2 will recognize his earlier misjudgements?

No, because all the data tells us you are full of s**t .

[Mighty AC]

"Overall, the structured homeschooling group performed much better than the public school group. And the margin was pretty dramatic.

In 5 of 7 test areas, (word identification, phonic decoding, science, social science, humanities) structured homeschoolers were at least one grade level ahead of public schoolers."

Removing poor and ESL (now ELL) students goes a long way to improving overall results. Add in one on one instruction, even if by a less qualified instructor, and often voluntary test participation for homeschoolers and the results are going to look that way. Public school numbers would look better too if the tests were voluntary and primarily written by wealthier students with English as a first language. Ontario's ridiculous publicly funded Catholic schools see a similar artificial boost in test scores.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Mighty AC

[carepov]

No, because all the data tells us you are full of s**t .

Do you have any data that suggest that, on average, homeschoolers are getting an inferior education to non-homeschoolers?

Removing poor and ESL (now ELL) students goes a long way to improving overall results. Add in one on one instruction, even if by a less qualified instructor, and often voluntary test participation for homeschoolers and the results are going to look that way. Public school numbers would look better too if the tests were voluntary and primarily written by wealthier students with English as a first language. Ontario's ridiculous publicly funded Catholic schools see a similar artificial boost in test scores.

The study provided by Guyser did attempt to controland adjust for those factors, expanding on my preious quote:

Overall, the structured homeschooling group performed much better than the public school group. And the margin was pretty dramatic.

In 5 of 7 test areas, (word identification, phonic decoding, science, social science, humanities) structured homeschoolers were at least one grade level ahead of public schoolers.

They were almost half a year ahead in math, and slightly, but not significantly, advanced in reading comprehension.

But this is a relatively small study. Was the homeschool advantage due to random factors?

It's unlikely.

Researchers calculated the probabilities of getting these results due to random chance alone. For science and calculation, these probabilities were 1.9% and 2.6%. For word identification, decoding, and social science, the probabilities were all below 0.07%.

Was the homeschool advantage merely the result of socioeconomic privilege? That seems rather unlikely too. Homeschoolers retained their edge even after researchers made statistical adjustments for differences in family income and mother’s education level.

And if the recruitment process selected for homeschoolers with high skill levels, we can say the same about public school students. Both groups--structured homeschoolers and public schoolers--consisted of volunteers. Both tested well above grade level.

So the implications seem clear: Canadian kids receiving structured home schooling are testing very well, and it's not merely a reflection of their parents' affluence or educational levels.

http://www.parentingscience.com/homeschooling-outcomes.html

Edited March 27, 2015 by carepov

[guyser]

Do you have any data that suggest that, on average, homeschoolers are getting an inferior education to non-homeschoolers?

...hang on...

So the implications seem clear: Canadian kids receiving structured home schooling are testing very well, and it's not merely a reflection of their parents' affluence or educational levels.

Let me correct this for you......

'So the implications seem clear: of those homeschooling parents who allowed to be tested , the Canadian kids receiving structured home schooling are testing very well.

IOW , no parent who sucks at it wants to have their kid tested, so they dont.

Pubic schools dont have that luxury

Why do you think private schools in the States boot kids out at christmas? Because those kids are bringing down the scores and cache of the school. So the school can keep on bragging.

Im not saying homers are dumb or ignorant (apart from those that are) , I am saying that it works in limited fashion much unlike public schools. If structured, if this, if that....the whole pro homer scheme is set up from the good ones who allow thier kids to be tested

[carepov]

...hang on...

Let me correct this for you......

'So the implications seem clear: of those homeschooling parents who allowed to be tested , the Canadian kids receiving structured home schooling are testing very well.

IOW , no parent who sucks at it wants to have their kid tested, so they dont.

Pubic schools dont have that luxury

Except in the controlled study where both groups had the luxury:

"And if the recruitment process selected for homeschoolers with high skill levels, we can say the same about public school students. Both groups--structured homeschoolers and public schoolers--consisted of volunteers. Both tested well above grade level."

Im not saying homers are dumb or ignorant (apart from those that are) , I am saying that it works in limited fashion much unlike public schools. If structured, if this, if that....the whole pro homer scheme is set up from the good ones who allow thier kids to be tested

I share your views regarding tests that are not apples-to-apples and I agree that homeschooling, like anything else, has to be done right to work. Had you started with the above instead of the below we probably would have avoided this exchange.

"Pretty much every other impartial test suggests that most homeschoolers are not getting the best education , and plenty of the parents refuse to have their kids tested."

[socialist]

“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it”.

George Santayana

Knowing why we teach our children about these things are a good reason not too repeat past mistakes.

Do our children know why the environment is polluted?

Why we teach diversity after the horrors of prejudice?

I cannot understand why a person that claims to be a teacher would think it is not important to know how we got here, Who showed us a better way and why we curse the monsters and mistakes of the past.

The closed minded comments you make is why we all do not believe a person like you could be trusted to teach students

https://educhatter.wordpress.com/2015/03/25/the-international-teaching-summit-2015-have-the-pisa-testers-gone-soft/#comments

Are you learning about 21st century learning?

[Ash74]

Are you?

https://educhatter.wordpress.com/2015/03/25/the-international-teaching-summit-2015-have-the-pisa-testers-gone-soft/#comments

Are you learning about 21st century learning?

https://educhatter.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/discovery-learning-will-the-canadian-pisa-2012-results-signal-the-beginning-of-the-end/

[Big Guy]

I believe that the success of a young person in school depends greatly on the support at home. If the parent is interested and has time for the child's education then the child usually does well. When parents choose to home school then you already know what relationship the parents have with their child and what their attitude is towards the education of their child. They care. The children will be successful.

I have seen many a parents nights in Secondary schools when the vast majority of parents who do bother to show up have children who are doing well, would like to see them do better and are really looking for a pat on the back or some "stroking" from the teachers.

The parents of most of the children who are failing already know their child is having problems or really do not care. Many are ashamed to come in to face the teacher who is just going to give them more bad news.

Look to the parents if you want an indicator of what the child is like - or at least what environment will influence the child.

[carepov]

I believe that the success of a young person in school depends greatly on the support at home. If the parent is interested and has time for the child's education then the child usually does well. When parents choose to home school then you already know what relationship the parents have with their child and what their attitude is towards the education of their child. They care. The children will be successful.

I have seen many a parents nights in Secondary schools when the vast majority of parents who do bother to show up have children who are doing well, would like to see them do better and are really looking for a pat on the back or some "stroking" from the teachers.

The parents of most of the children who are failing already know their child is having problems or really do not care. Many are ashamed to come in to face the teacher who is just going to give them more bad news.

Look to the parents if you want an indicator of what the child is like - or at least what environment will influence the child.

Sure, parents are the most important factor, but there's more. How do kids succeed despite incompetent/apathetic parents? Why do some kids with great parents fail?

The Finish school system is a great model for the rest of the world. It shares many of the philosophies of most homeschoolers:

-Kids don't start school until they are 7. 0-6 is 100 % play time

-Less testing

-Less schoolwork/classtime and more play time, especially outside

-Less homework

-Teachers are given more freedom

-PBL is very common in homeschooling (unit studies)

[overthere]

My wife got a new student in her Grade 3 class in the middle of the last school year. The whole family of six had quit homeschooling abruptly to attend public schools. .

My wife did not have any background on the kid when she got her, so she asked the standard question 'where was the last school you attended'? The answer was "I was home teached". That got a laugh in the staff room.

The whole family was 2 or 3 years behind grade level, except in religious studies.

[Ash74]

My wife got a new student in her Grade 3 class in the middle of the last school year. The whole family of six had quit homeschooling abruptly to attend public schools. .

My wife did not have any background on the kid when she got her, so she asked the standard question 'where was the last school you attended'? The answer was "I was home teached". That got a laugh in the staff room.

The whole family was 2 or 3 years behind grade level, except in religious studies.

My last year of high school had a six year old kid that was home schooled. He was sent to public school for a couple years.

You are going to have good and bad examples in everything

[socialist]

My wife got a new student in her Grade 3 class in the middle of the last school year. The whole family of six had quit homeschooling abruptly to attend public schools. .

My wife did not have any background on the kid when she got her, so she asked the standard question 'where was the last school you attended'? The answer was "I was home teached". That got a laugh in the staff room.

The whole family was 2 or 3 years behind grade level, except in religious studies.

I don't know if it's right that your wife and her colleagues were in the staff room laughing at a student. We need to respect all students. Adults laughing at a kid is low. Your wife should be embarrassed for her unprofessional conduct. Maybe your wife suffers from insecurity so she felt the need to garner laughs at the expense of one of her students. It's teachers like your wife that I have no use for.

[Michael Hardner]

Let's keep the discussion going please.

[Je suis Omar]

lol.

I do not agree with the concept facts are useless.

I believe kids should know who the first prime minister was. Why Hitler is not a nice person. Why socialism does not work,etc,etc

We still teach spelling and spell check is around everywhere. Why have facts become such an outdated issue?

... who the first PM was and how he was like Hitler.

Why China is blowing all the " capitalist" countries out of the water.

Consider all the crap that has been taught for 300 years about the English language.

[Je suis Omar]

My wife got a new student in her Grade 3 class in the middle of the last school year. The whole family of six had quit homeschooling abruptly to attend public schools. .

My wife did not have any background on the kid when she got her, so she asked the standard question 'where was the last school you attended'? The answer was "I was home teached". That got a laugh in the staff room.

The whole family was 2 or 3 years behind grade level, except in religious studies.

The laugh is only indicative of how ignorant teachers are about language.