Bill C-51: Federal Anti-Terror Legislation polling results

[Big Guy]

I believe I stated "... support the will of the people to create their own structure". The USA imposed the type of government it felt was appropriate for the people in Iraq - and look what emerged.

The way the people end up deciding what form they want when the existing governing structure is taken away from them is through internal negotiations or civil war.

For the USA it was "Damned you for getting involved" in the first place. The USA stayed long enough to give their USA created Iraqi government and especially the military forces a chance. Then it was time to leave and let the people decide. They appear to have chosen a civil war - so be it. Let the winner of that war create the new governing structure.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Big Guy

[On Guard for Thee]

I believe a vacuum is created by some outside force changing a part of a country to where there is no governing structure, no law and no order. Under those conditions, groups who thrive on lack of public order or repercussions for illegal violent acts then take power. It takes time to create a governing structure which will be acceptable to the people. It takes no time for the violent and unlawful to take control of the area.

I agree with eyeball, if any outside force destroys a governing structure then they have the responsibility to stay and support the will of the people to create their own structure. Leaving after a "victory" creates a void that is quickly filled by the strongest and most violent.

There was a government in place before the US scaled back their involvement. The problem was that the government was too heavily weighted i favor of the Shiites and the Sunni population felt left out ad indeed were persecuted. Saddam wasnt such a nice guy, but his government had experience governing, and they knew how to keep the lights on. Those disenfranchised Sunnis begat what we now know as ISIS.

[jbg]

I beat it daily and yet I just can't understand why that dog keeps attacking me.

Out the window goes yet another long held cherished belief - Canadians aren't as ignorant as Americans.

"Support for the Conservative government's anti-terror bill has dropped dramatically over the past month, a new poll suggests."

Maybe there is a glimmer of hope.

I am sure that support will reappear next time some Islamist in one of our two countries decides on another senseless act such as the Parliament murder.

[On Guard for Thee]

I am sure that support will reappear next time some Islamist in one of our two countries decides on another senseless act such as the Parliament murder.

I think the drop in support for the bill has to do with people realizing they dont have to give away freedom as a trade for protection. Once again, as people take a closer look at the actual bill it becomes less acceptable.

[eyeball]

I am sure that support will reappear next time some Islamist in one of our two countries decides on another act such as the Parliament murder.

Careful what you wish for but yeah, you're probably right.

It could go either way though, I do recall, in the days following 9/11, listening to clips of man-from-the-heartland comments on events and this weathered worn out looking old fellow who wondered if this would finally cause Americans to return to it's more isolationist traditions.

Does this sentiment resonate in any meaningful way at all in Americans or was it just a random one-off? It would be a pity if it was but maybe that ship sank at the dock years ago.

[Hudson Jones]

C-51 doesn't bug me the slightest......but then I don't have an internet presence one could conclude is supportive of radical Islam

Yes. Radical Islam (aka terrorism) - They really know how to 'move' people like you. This is how freedom of speech and privacy of people are taken away; through fear. You might as well go live in China, where these types of intrusive laws are common and accepted.

[jbg]

Careful what you wish for but yeah, you're probably right.

It could go either way though, I do recall, in the days following 9/11, listening to clips of man-from-the-heartland comments on events and this weathered worn out looking old fellow who wondered if this would finally cause Americans to return to it's more isolationist traditions.

Does this sentiment resonate in any meaningful way at all in Americans or was it just a random one-off? It would be a pity if it was but maybe that ship sank at the dock years ago.

There is always some outcropping of isolationism but popular music from the heartland, i.e. country music, was frighteningly bellicose. Some of the sentiments make even me look dovish.

[Keepitsimple]

Yes. Radical Islam (aka terrorism) - They really know how to 'move' people like you. This is how freedom of speech and privacy of people are taken away; through fear. You might as well go live in China, where these types of intrusive laws are common and accepted.

Sorry Pal - the "fear" is all on you. If there is anything that is driving Canadians - it's not fear, it's anger and disgust at atrocities that could very well make it into Canada......so bring it on - and we'll make sure we're ready to take the reasonable steps that are required to deal with it.

[eyeball]

There's plenty of anger and disgust at the atrocities Canada and it's allies have done as well.

[Hudson Jones]

Sorry Pal - the "fear" is all on you. If there is anything that is driving Canadians - it's not fear, it's anger and disgust at atrocities that could very well make it into Canada......so bring it on - and we'll make sure we're ready to take the reasonable steps that are required to deal with it.

As it has already been shown, reasonable steps can be taken to ensure our security, without taking away our rights to privacy.

Sorry pal, but both federal and provincial privacy commissioners have spoken out against this bill.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada Daniel Therrien, appointed by the government less than a year ago and described as an expert by Prime Minister Stephen Harper, slammed the bill in a submission to the Standing Committee on Public Safety:

The scale of information sharing being proposed is unprecedented, the scope of the new powers conferred by the Act is excessive, particularly as these powers affect ordinary Canadians, and the safeguards protecting against unreasonable loss of privacy are seriously deficient. While the potential to know virtually everything about everyone may well identify some new threats, the loss of privacy is clearly excessive. All Canadians would be caught in this web.

You may be okay with pooping on the Constitution and Charter rights, but I'm not. There is no need to be a cheerleader for everything Harper says or does.

These bills being pushed by Harper will give the right to bypass the courts on all surveillance decisions. As a result, they will have legalized a totalitarian dictatorship not unlike that found in East Germany before reunification and in Germany under Hitler. They will have made Democracy nothing more than Orwellian doublespeak; an illusion that lets folks believe they have a say in how their country is governed.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Hudson Jones

[Big Guy]

I do not understand what the threat is considered to be. I read "... could very well make it into Canada" and "ISIL has declared war on Canada" etc. ISIL was described by Obama as a "junior varsity" team and all estimates give it a size of about 20,000 folks.

There are a lot more organizations around the world who have no use for capitalism and who are far more capable of "making it into Canada". ISIL has no large armaments, no air force, no navy. Just how is ISIL a threat to Canada?

I can see rogue dissidents in Canada doing mischief but that is only because we are killing them over there where we have no business to be. And when a few are brainwashed or whatever and want to go join ISIL then we force them to stay in Canada and since they can't go there to do battle they try to take out Canadians here.

Get our forces out of there and let the fanatics leave to go fight there and there will be no problems here.

[jbg]

Yes. Radical Islam (aka terrorism) - They really know how to 'move' people like you.

Bomb blasts sure do create "movement," even of whole people.

[GostHacked]

Bomb blasts sure do create "movement," even of whole people.

Ah the old 'mushroom cloud' scare tactic. Enough terrorism and people will LOVE their police state. BEG for it. Not a world I want to live in.

[Hudson Jones]

Bomb blasts sure do create "movement," even of whole people.

Boo!

[Keepitsimple]

These bills being pushed by Harper will give the right to bypass the courts on all surveillance decisions. As a result, they will have legalized a totalitarian dictatorship not unlike that found in East Germany before reunification and in Germany under Hitler. They will have made Democracy nothing more than Orwellian doublespeak; an illusion that lets folks believe they have a say in how their country is governed.

Wow......you really are afraid! Now....calm down and realize that if ANY of what you say comes to pass, Canadians will throw the bums out. That's what democracy is all about......and some other party will win the right to govern.......maybe even the Liberals once they dump Trudeau and losing big this time around. So crawl out from under the bed and let democracy wend it's way to the middle of the road that Canada has always embraced.

[Je suis Omar]

You think I have done something to warrant a terrorist wanting to kill me?

Omar: It depends. Are you in the military? The two "terrorists" to date killed members of the group that has been involved in terrorizing and killing their kith and kin for decades.

Drummindiver: Don't know what you've done if your conscience is bothering you to the point that you believe terrorists are warranted in their desire to kill anybody.

But yet you support the greatest terrorists on the planet, the ones that have been terrorizing, poisoning, torturing, killing Cubans, Iraqis, afghans, Nicaraguans, Brazilians, Guatemalans, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Filipinos, Chinese, Laotians, Hawaiians, ... for over a century.

And don't forget Native Americans.

And you don't see the huge disconnect in your thinking?

Edited April 6, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[guyser]

Now....calm down and realize that if ANY of what you say comes to pass, Canadians will throw the bums out.

Probably better to protest the stupidity of the current Govt on this issue than waiting and waiting while the harm is being done

So crawl out from under the bed and let democracy wend it's way to the middle of the road that Canada has always embraced.

No surprise out of that entrie post you lack sufficient resolve to counter the salient parts....ie...

Privacy Commissioner of Canada Daniel Therrien, appointed by the government less than a year ago and described as an expert by Prime Minister Stephen Harper, slammed the bill in a submission to the Standing Committee on Public Safety:

The scale of information sharing being proposed is unprecedented, the scope of the new powers conferred by the Act is excessive, particularly as these powers affect ordinary Canadians, and the safeguards protecting against unreasonable loss of privacy are seriously deficient. While the potential to know virtually everything about everyone may well identify some new threats, the loss of privacy is clearly excessive. All Canadians would be caught in this web.

An expert last year , not so much now.

Good Job Steve !

Edited April 6, 2015 by Guyser2

[Keepitsimple]

I do not understand what the threat is considered to be. I read "... could very well make it into Canada" and "ISIL has declared war on Canada" etc.

Get our forces out of there and let the fanatics leave to go fight there and there will be no problems here.

And when the "fanatics" have taken over Iraq and Syria, I suppose you think they'll be happy, right? Why do you think the Arab League is also bombing ISIL in Syria? If allowed, the likes of ISIL will not stop - and if you think they will be satisfied with "just" their Middle East Caliphate, you're just another naïve Neville Chamberlain. How do we know that? Because they've said so!

As for Canada being a target - again - they've said so. I'm sure that France and the UK and Spain and Belgium thought they were safe - before they all felt the twisted mayhem that these thugs can inflict. We're taking baby steps to get out in front of what has already happened in Europe - and dupes like yourself are fodder for their propaganda.

[Je suis Omar]

Bomb blasts sure do create "movement," even of whole people.

International Terrorism: Image and Reality

Noam Chomsky

In Alexander George (ed.), Western State Terrorism, Routledge, December, 1991

There are two ways to approach the study of terrorism. One may adopt a literal approach, taking the topic seriously, or a propagandistic approach, construing the concept of terrorism as a weapon to be exploited in the service of some system of power. In each case it is clear how to proceed. Pursuing the literal approach, we begin by determining what constitutes terrorism. We then seek instances of the phenomenon -- concentrating on the major examples, if we are serious -- and try to determine causes and remedies. The propagandistic approach dictates a different course. We begin with the thesis that terrorism is the responsibility of some officially designated enemy. We then designate terrorist acts as "terrorist" just in the cases where they can be attributed (whether plausibly or not) to the required source; otherwise they are to be ignored, suppressed, or termed "retaliation" or "self-defence.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199112--02.htm

Edited April 6, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[Je suis Omar]

And when the "fanatics" have taken over Iraq and Syria, I suppose you think they'll be happy, right? Why do you think the Arab League is also bombing ISIL in Syria? If allowed, the likes of ISIL will not stop - and if you think they will be satisfied with "just" their Middle East Caliphate, you're just another naïve Neville Chamberlain.

Here we go again - "The Commies are coming, the Commies are coming".

Who are the dupes?

[Hudson Jones]

Wow......you really are afraid! Now....calm down and realize that if ANY of what you say comes to pass, Canadians will throw the bums out. That's what democracy is all about......and some other party will win the right to govern.......maybe even the Liberals once they dump Trudeau and losing big this time around. So crawl out from under the bed and let democracy wend it's way to the middle of the road that Canada has always embraced.

What kind of a strange logic is that?

Accept a bill that the federal privacy commissioner and all provincial privacy commissioners have all slammed, because "it may not be as bad... and then we can change it later... if we want"

If we disagree with it, we should voice our opinion before it is passed. This is what a true democracy is about.

[On Guard for Thee]

Well the good news is that support for c51 continues to plummet. Last Angus Reid I saw in Feb. had approval at 38%. Quite a drop in a very short time. It goes hand hand with the increase in the numbers who have actually read it. Harper must find that a little perplexing as he heads into the election cycle. And then there is Duffy....

[drummindiver]

Je suis Omar, on 06 Apr 2015 - 3:28 PM, said:

drummindiver, on 03 Apr 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

You think I have done something to warrant a terrorist wanting to kill me?

Omar: It depends. Are you in the military? The two "terrorists" to date killed members of the group that has been involved in terrorizing and killing their kith and kin for decades.

This, is despicable. You think those Canadian military men deserved to die at the hands of extremists goes beyond anything I care to discuss.

In the words of Father Zoolander, `you`re dead to me boy`.

Edited April 6, 2015 by drummindiver

[Je suis Omar]

Bomb blasts sure do create "movement," even of whole people.

Do you have any real understanding of what you have just said, jbg? Do you have an idea of the number of Cambodians, Vietnamese, Laotians, Koreans who were blown into parts so small they virtually disappeared.

Disappearing people, in many different ways, is what the USA does best. Have you heard of Nixon's instructions to Kissinger and on down to the bombing command - "Anything that flies on anything that moves".

See "Bombing Over Cambodia" (link below) to see just how brutal and amoral this very common American action was.

http://www.yale.edu/cgp/Walrus_CambodiaBombing_OCT06.pdf

[Je suis Omar]

Je suis Omar, on 06 Apr 2015 - 3:28 PM, said:

This, is despicable. You think those Canadian military men deserved to die at the hands of extremists goes beyond anything I care to discuss.

In the words of Father Zoolander, `you`re dead to me boy`.

As Professor Chomsky said: We then designate terrorist acts as "terrorist" just in the cases where they can be attributed (whether plausibly or not) to the required source; otherwise they are to be ignored, suppressed, or termed "retaliation" or "self-defence."

I'm always amazed at how some folks seem so pleased to go thru life with blinders on. Horses are more than smart enough to request their removal, but supposedly educated people ... .

Edited April 6, 2015 by Je suis Omar