Bill C-51: Federal Anti-Terror Legislation polling results

[jacee]

I'm hopeful that the committee process will end up putting more money into the existing SIRC oversight mechanism - and introduce a 5 year sunset clause. That's what I'd like to see.

SIRC's current mandate is review of CSIS' operations well after the fact, including addressing any complaints. It does not oversee current operations, and cannot:

spy-agencys-review-group-cant-perform-oversight-role

If (SIRC) becomes involved in advising on or, worse, approving operations before they occur, it will be implicated in the agencys operations and in effect will be reporting on itself. Therefore it should avoid giving advisory opinions before the fact, the commission wrote.

[Keepitsimple]

SIRC's current mandate is review of CSIS' operations well after the fact, including addressing any complaints. It does not oversee current operations, and cannot:

spy-agencys-review-group-cant-perform-oversight-role

If (SIRC) becomes involved in advising on or, worse, approving operations before they occur, it will be implicated in the agencys operations and in effect will be reporting on itself. Therefore it should avoid giving advisory opinions before the fact, the commission wrote.

You forgot to include the sentence immediately preceding your excerpt:

To ensure independence, objectivity and credibility, the McDonald Commission recommended – and the Liberal government of Pierre Trudeau adopted – that SIRC’s role would be strictly after the fact.

I certainly don't expect you to agree - but getting anyone - SIRC or MPs - involved before-hand in the decision-making processes regarding "imminent-threat" operational matters.....is literally a recipe for disaster.

[jacee]

You forgot to include the sentence immediately preceding your excerpt:

I certainly don't expect you to agree - but getting anyone - SIRC or MPs - involved before-hand in the decision-making processes regarding "imminent-threat" operational matters.....is literally a recipe for disaster.

Who do you think should oversee ongoing CSIS operations under Bill C-51?

a security-cleared committee of parliamentarians like those used in Britain and the United States monitoring spy agencies. ... ?

- See more at: http://m.mississauga.com/news-story/5521999-conservative-chong-wants-more-spy-oversight/#sthash.S4xcY8To.dpuf

Edited March 26, 2015 by jacee

[On Guard for Thee]

I think this ridiculous bill was also meant to distract the public from the CPC economic record.

Exactly. Have we seen a budget yet...

[Keepitsimple]

Who do you think should oversee ongoing CSIS operations under Bill C-51?

.

Since you are the one who thinks a change is required - who do you think should do it - and exactly how would it work? How many people involved, do they get involved in operational matters, before-the-fact, after-the-fact oversight, etc? It's easy to hind behind generic, feel-good euphemisms like "Parliamentary Oversight" and "let the elected MPs do it"......but how would you propose going about it?

[jacee]

Since you are the one who thinks a change is required - who do you think should do it - and exactly how would it work? How many people involved, do they get involved in operational matters, before-the-fact, after-the-fact oversight, etc? It's easy to hind behind generic, feel-good euphemisms like "Parliamentary Oversight" and "let the elected MPs do it"......but how would you propose going about it?

I do think looking at how other countries are doing it makes sense:

a security-cleared committee of parliamentarians like those used in Britain and the United States monitoring spy agencies. - See more at: http://m.mississauga.com/news-story/5521999-conservative-chong-wants-more-spy-oversight/#sthash.S4xcY8To.dpuf

Conservative MP Michael Chong said he supports the governments Bill C-51, but added he also agrees with the opposition parties that a committee of MPs should oversee the work of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and other national-security operations.

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/tory-mp-supports-calls-for-legislative-oversight-of-anti-terror-bill/article23587566/?service=mobile

Edited March 26, 2015 by jacee

[Keepitsimple]

I do think looking at how other countries are doing it makes sense:

a security-cleared committee of parliamentarians like those used in Britain and the United States monitoring spy agencies. - See more at: http://m.mississauga.com/news-story/5521999-conservative-chong-wants-more-spy-oversight/#sthash.S4xcY8To.dpuf

Is that what you want? Just copy the US? How well has that worked out with Edward Snowdon's releases and Obama's big-brother approach to spying on Americans? It's easy for the Harper-haters to criticize SIRC - but coming up with a completely new oversight mechanism (to replace something that has worked at least as well as other countries for decades) would be a daunting task.....one that can't just be shallowly presented as "Parliamentary Oversight".

As I said, I'm hoping the committee process will provide more funding for SIRC and introduce a 5 year sunset clause. We'll have to wait and see about that.

You still haven't told me what precisely your alternative is to replace SIRC right now. Not surprisingly, I don't think you have a clue other than to keep uttering naive, feel-good catch-lines.

[jacee]

Is that what you want? Just copy the US? How well has that worked out with Edward Snowdon's releases and Obama's big-brother approach to spying on Americans? It's easy for the Harper-haters to criticize SIRC - but coming up with a completely new oversight mechanism (to replace something that has worked at least as well as other countries for decades) would be a daunting task.....one that can't just be shallowly presented as "Parliamentary Oversight".

As I said, I'm hoping the committee process will provide more funding for SIRC and introduce a 5 year sunset clause. We'll have to wait and see about that.

You still haven't told me what precisely your alternative is to replace SIRC right now. Not surprisingly, I don't think you have a clue other than to keep uttering naive, feel-good catch-lines.

Yes SIRC will need additional funding to deal with increasing volume of review work after the fact.

And we also need ongoing oversight of CSIS activities by a cross-party committee of publicly accountable MP's, not just "the Minister".

.

[Keepitsimple]

Yes SIRC will need additional funding to deal with increasing volume of review work after the fact.

And we also need ongoing oversight of CSIS activities by a cross-party committee of publicly accountable MP's, not just "the Minister".

.

Can you clarify what you are saying? SIRC has responsibility for CSIS oversight and as I said - and you've agreed, I want to see more funding. Are you suggesting that these Cross-party MPs also oversee CSIS and if so - how do they work together....do the MPs become temporary members of the SIRC oversight committee? Or are you suggesting that the MPs oversee SIRC who then oversee CSIS. You can't just throw around a term like "oversight" without defining precisely what you mean. Take another stab at it.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Keepitsimple

[jacee]

Is that what you want? Just copy the US? How well has that worked out with Edward Snowdon's releases and Obama's big-brother approach to spying on Americans? It's easy for the Harper-haters to criticize SIRC - but coming up with a completely new oversight mechanism (to replace something that has worked at least as well as other countries for decades) would be a daunting task.....one that can't just be shallowly presented as "Parliamentary Oversight".

As I said, I'm hoping the committee process will provide more funding for SIRC and introduce a 5 year sunset clause. We'll have to wait and see about that.

You still haven't told me what precisely your alternative is to replace SIRC right now. Not surprisingly, I don't think you have a clue other than to keep uttering naive, feel-good catch-lines.

SIRC will continue to provide annual and complaints based review.

Ongoing oversight of operations by a publicly accountable body is also required.

.

[dre]

Is that what you want? Just copy the US? How well has that worked out with Edward Snowdon's releases and Obama's big-brother approach to spying on Americans? It's easy for the Harper-haters to criticize SIRC - but coming up with a completely new oversight mechanism (to replace something that has worked at least as well as other countries for decades) would be a daunting task.....one that can't just be shallowly presented as "Parliamentary Oversight".

As I said, I'm hoping the committee process will provide more funding for SIRC and introduce a 5 year sunset clause. We'll have to wait and see about that.

You still haven't told me what precisely your alternative is to replace SIRC right now. Not surprisingly, I don't think you have a clue other than to keep uttering naive, feel-good catch-lines.

I dont like this legislation and think it should be shoved up harpers ass along with the Internet Surveillance act, and the rest of the terrible crap this governments tried to pass. So we disagree there. But given the fact we are stuck with it, your idea of a sunset clause makes is a reasonable common sense approach.

[jacee]

rights-group-presses-watchdog-on-csis-records-about-northern-gateway-pipeline

A civil liberties group says newly disclosed Canadian Security Intelligence Service records on protest surveillance bolster its formal complaint that spies went too far in eyeing environmental activists.

The British Columbia Civil Liberties Association has asked the Security Intelligence Review Committee to consider the documents which reveal CSIS deliberations on the proposed Northern Gateway pipeline as it investigates the spying allegations.

... opposition to the petroleum industry a threat to national security.

... shared information with the National Energy Board about radicalized environmentalist groups

... Leadnow, ForestEthics Advocacy Association, the Council of Canadians, the Dogwood Initiative, EcoSociety, the Sierra Club of British Columbia, and the aboriginal rights movement Idle No More.

... the authority or law allowing such surveillance.

...shared intelligence with the petroleum industry

Edited March 27, 2015 by jacee

[On Guard for Thee]

A sunset clause would be the absolute minimum that should be added here. SIRC has been gutted and it was never anything significant in the first place. An all party committee that meets more than once a year would be a good start. I am willing to believe that the people working for CSIS may well be good people, but wouldnt some checks and balances vis a vis the huge changes Harper brings in with C 51 make sense. Or do you just want to give big brother all the reins...

[jacee]

Apparently we're already not allowed to protest ...

/mass-arrests-quebec-signal-start-printemps-

The police had set up a trap for the protesters: they would not advance in the streets, nor could they turn back. The famous image of a police kettle right outside my front door.

...

The students waited outside for three full hours while the cops processed about 100 people. ... They closed a main artery of the Haute Ville for three hours. Metrobuses were re-routed. Cars were trapped. And for what?

A student march of 100 would have easily passed through the streets. They would not have shut down two intersections for three hours. They would not have kept babies awake.

...

Instead, we witnessed the new normal: detain, arrest. Hold people outside for hours.

Refuse access to bathrooms.

Point rubber-bullet cannons at them. Let police dogs loose on them. Let them know that

protesting ... will be crushed by state repression.

.

Edited March 27, 2015 by jacee

[Rue]

Wow we welcome a culture that covers faces because it feels they are sexually provocative then in the next breath cry about repressive laws as to terrorists.

Talk about a disconnect.

One of the reasons we have such laws now is because we insisted on accommodating cultural values that ferment intolerance. Now we are expected to tolerate the intolerance with no restrictions? Come on in and blow everyone up. Its Canada.Welcome.

[guyser]

Wow we welcome a culture that covers faces because it feels they are sexually provocative then in the next breath cry about repressive laws as to terrorists.

Talk about a disconnect.

The disconnect is all yours.

You havent a clue whats going on do you?

One of the reasons we have such laws now is because we insisted on accommodating cultural values that ferment intolerance. Now we are expected to tolerate the intolerance with no restrictions? Come on in and blow everyone up. Its Canada.Welcome.

You forgot to say "This doesnt include orthodox jewish or otherwise culture restrictions"

Cuz they be all good.

Typical .

Edited March 27, 2015 by Guyser2

[Big Guy]

When a person enters a Canadian court of law, males are told to take your hat off but a Jewish skullcap is allowed - Why?

[jacee]

Harper blinks!

/anti-terror-bill-c-51-to-be-changed-as-tories-respond-to-criticism

[Smallc]

Harper blinks!

/anti-terror-bill-c-51-to-be-changed-as-tories-respond-to-criticism

Isn't that the way the legislative process is supposed to work?

[cybercoma]

Isn't that the way the legislative process is supposed to work?

I thought the legislative process worked by cutting debate short and refusing to hear from experts at committee.

[On Guard for Thee]

I thought the legislative process worked by cutting debate short and refusing to hear from experts at committee.

Thats how it works of late. Am I second guessing or did Harper have this built into the concept right from the start, as in we know when people actually read it the support will wane, and then we will try and appear reasonable by making a few changes...

[ron Young]

Bingo On Guard....That is exactly what happened.

What bothers me is if you have to be that calculated just to stay elected the prize must be worth your soul as a human being.

[jacee]

Thats how it works of late. Am I second guessing or did Harper have this built into the concept right from the start, as in we know when people actually read it the support will wane, and then we will try and appear reasonable by making a few changes...

You might be right and that's how legislators normally work - put a few things in for the opposition to throw out. Harper hasn't worked that way until now. It makes me think the opposition better look more carefully at what else he's trying to camouflage to keep in the bill.

The information sharing provisions, for example:

as well as further disclosure to any person, for any purpose.

Hunh!!???

[Big Guy]

See post #230

[On Guard for Thee]

You might be right and that's how legislators normally work - put a few things in for the opposition to throw out. Harper hasn't worked that way until now. It makes me think the opposition better look more carefully at what else he's trying to camouflage to keep in the bill.

The information sharing provisions, for example:

as well as further disclosure to any person, for any purpose.

Hunh!!???

Apparently there is some adjustment to that, but of course still no talk of oversight.