-1=e^ipi Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 It doesn't mean that the 2006 data is good, it just indicates that the quality of the 2011 data is probably worse than the 2006 data. Quote
TimG Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) If the non-response rate is correlated with a factor you are studying, then that can severely limit or skew results of a study.The same is true if the likelyhood of lies is correlated with the factor you are studying. As for smaller sample, it is very simple. If you are trying to measure say the mean income of a population of people, then the standard deviation of your sample mean is roughly inversely proportional to the squareroot of the population. So larger sample -> more confident results.But for polls a sample of 1000-2000 is enough. I can see an issue comes up with subsets of the population by area. i.e. you are only looking at people with 5 household members grouped by neighborhood but no matter what dataset you have there will always be way to slice the data that will leave you with insufficient data. Edited February 6, 2015 by TimG Quote
-1=e^ipi Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 IOW - you do need a "known to be good" reference to detect bad data. No, I'm saying that one data set has a lower quality than another. Are you trying to suggest that you want statisticians to detect which data points are lying and which aren't or something? The same is true if the likelyhood of lies is correlated with the factor you are studying. Yes, there are issues either way. But the inaccurate data is still better than no data. But for polls a sample of 1000-2000 is enough. It depends what you are doing. If you are just trying to find an average or a percentage, then fine. But if you are trying to do some sort of regression that is trying to explain one factor using another and while controlling for additional factors, it can quickly become insufficient. Quote
eyeball Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 Why are the people that are complaining (rightfully so) about the new terror bill being to invasive in our lives now complaining about not being forced to send private information to the government?Because the distinction most people can make between the two things is a rational one and they also know trying to pretend they're one and the same is nuts. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
cybercoma Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 A falsehood which further illustrates how this is non-issue that only exists because partisans want an issue to whine about.What complete garbage. The former head of Statistics Canada resigned over it. Econometricians and social scientists all over the country have denounced the scrapping of the long-form census. Cities are crying about having inaccurate information from which to make policy. Federal Departments have complained about the lack of information for their decision making processes as well. Have you been living under a rock? Quote
cybercoma Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Seems to me like the government should just ask Google/Facebook/etc for some data, and they will know 100x more about people than just having a census, however long or mandatory.Maybe you should ask to be appointed the new head of Statistics Canada. Seems you've got this all sussed out. Policy analysts can just build massive datasets by combing one Facebook page at a time. Who knows. In 40 years they might have several million responses they would otherwise have from the formal census. Edited February 6, 2015 by cybercoma Quote
cybercoma Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 (edited) Canada, why do you make data so hard to find?! It also doesn't help that the federal departments are legally not allowed to share data. Edited February 6, 2015 by cybercoma Quote
Ash74 Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 Because the distinction most people can make between the two things is a rational one and they also know trying to pretend they're one and the same is nuts. I found the long census was an invasion of privacy and the fact I could be prosecuted for not answering was ridiculous. Sure I have to file my taxes so be it but everything else is really none of the governments concern. Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
Bonam Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 Maybe you should ask to be appointed the new head of Statistics Canada. Seems you've got this all sussed out. Policy analysts can just build massive datasets by combing one Facebook page at a time. Silly response. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 I found the long census was an invasion of privacy and the fact I could be prosecuted for not answering was ridiculous. Sure I have to file my taxes so be it but everything else is really none of the governments concern. If its none of their concern, then prepare to pay those taxes and what you get back will be a crapshoot. And when that happens, keep your damn mouth shut because your ilk will be to blame. Quote
Ash74 Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 If its none of their concern, then prepare to pay those taxes and what you get back will be a crapshoot. And when that happens, keep your damn mouth shut because your ilk will be to blame. Not with that new tax cut this year. i know you Liberals hate people spending their own money themselves and not depending on the government to do it for them. Off you go little lemming and keep drinking the kool aid Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
On Guard for Thee Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 Not with that new tax cut this year. i know you Liberals hate people spending their own money themselves and not depending on the government to do it for them. Off you go little lemming and keep drinking the kool aid You dont seem to understand, its you righties who like the koolaid. Who needs freedom and who needs privacy, let the dictator take over my life. Sorry, most Canadians are made of sterner stuff. Quote
Moonbox Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 FWIW, I didn't see the mandatory census as a problem that need solving, however, the partisan posturing over this issue is way over the top. On that I'll agree with you 100%. It's a rather minor issue, all things said. It's just a decision that made very little sense, particularly given his already weak reputation in the scientific/academic community. They make it sound like the world will end if we don't force people to fill out the long form even though we have no data that will tell us whether forcing people to fill out the form actually produces more reliable data. The statisticians and academics (the people who know best) are the ones complaining the loudest about the change. It is quite possible a volunteer census sent to a larger number of households would provide better data. Technically possible, yes. Realistically? The problem with voluntary surveys (vs mandatory) is that you're not getting statistically representative data. That's a huge problem. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he is for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
On Guard for Thee Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 The NHS is a nose dive in terms of valuable statistics. I guess it would be like saying well, you can pay your income tax, but of course only if you want to and have time. Quote
Ash74 Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 You dont seem to understand, its you righties who like the koolaid. Who needs freedom and who needs privacy, let the dictator take over my life. Sorry, most Canadians are made of sterner stuff. I live in Ontario. The nanny state of business crushing regulations,high taxes,huge energy costs and election fraud. Care to guess which party is running it right now? Sterner stuff you say....... I also disagree with the violations of privacy with the terrorist bill. It does not matter if it is a form I am forced to fill out at the order of the government so it can keep tabs on me or whether I am being spied on I do not see the difference. I can admit that. If I disagree with the actions I say so. I just don't follow blindly as I see you are doing because JT says so but hey he has nice hair Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
On Guard for Thee Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 I live in Ontario. The nanny state of business crushing regulations,high taxes,huge energy costs and election fraud. Care to guess which party is running it right now? Sterner stuff you say....... I also disagree with the violations of privacy with the terrorist bill. It does not matter if it is a form I am forced to fill out at the order of the government so it can keep tabs on me or whether I am being spied on I do not see the difference. I can admit that. If I disagree with the actions I say so. I just don't follow blindly as I see you are doing because JT says so but hey he has nice hair Where have you been all your life. Census has been around for years. It provides government with info they need to properly provide services. Doesnt have anything to do with political stripe. Abso;utely nothing to do with JT. Quote
Ash74 Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 The Conservatives cancelled the long census. The other parties want to bring it back. You following so far? Seems the questions that the long form census is used for what? Studies that nobody reads? To give arguments for more government pet projects? My big problem with it is that you are forced by the government to give out information that you may consider none of their business but must answer for fear of prosecution. Quote “Show me a young Conservative and I'll show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I'll show you someone with no brains.”― Winston S. Churchill There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him. –Robert Heinlein
On Guard for Thee Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 The Conservatives cancelled the long census. The other parties want to bring it back. You following so far? Seems the questions that the long form census is used for what? Studies that nobody reads? To give arguments for more government pet projects? My big problem with it is that you are forced by the government to give out information that you may consider none of their business but must answer for fear of prosecution. Apparently you dont understand what statistics do for us. For instance, and Ill keep it simple for you, lets say a whole buch of people leave Nfld and go to Alba to find work, and decide to stay there. How would the government know that accurately if not for the census. Quote
Black Dog Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 The Conservatives cancelled the long census. The other parties want to bring it back. You following so far? Seems the questions that the long form census is used for what? Studies that nobody reads? To give arguments for more government pet projects? My big problem with it is that you are forced by the government to give out information that you may consider none of their business but must answer for fear of prosecution. How in god's name can you have a strong position on this if you don't even know what's done with the data? Quote
Keepitsimple Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 Perhaps the government should propose an alternative then. Sure - if you want some granular data that the Census doesn't provide - collaborate with others who require the same data and sponsor your own survey. Other countries get by just fine. Quote Back to Basics
dre Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 Can you explain how that works? How can a statistical test tell how much data is bad because people choose to enter inaccurate responses? Find it hard to believe such errors are detectable without a set of 'known to be correct' data. Pretty easy actually... You do statistical QC. The government has lots of hard data available on everyone. Everything from income statements, to property deeds, to mailing addresses, and probably a lot of data that they dont even want us to know they have. They can cross reference this against their census data and get a confidence level, and a confidence interval and get an idea of how reliable the data is. The real problem is when you make fundamental changes in the way data is collected, because it makes that data useless for comparative purposes. Data points from before are no longer comparable to data points from after. And there was no utility to this change... it didnt make the data better, didnt save money, didnt add any value. But none of this will matter to you, because you believe that anyone with more than a highschool education is part of some massive conspiracy, and that your ideological hunches are worth a lot more than the opinions of statisticians, and people with extensive backgrounds in a given field. But beyond that you dont seem to have a grasp on what census data is, and how it is used. For example... heres some conclusions from the last census... Ten of the 15 census agglomerations with the strongest population growth between 2006 and 2011 are located in Alberta Oh I know! Everyone is lying, and the population of Alberta has been shrinking. Decreasing share of senior women living alone Their lying about having boyfriends to look cool! Step Families: Counted for the first time in 2011 Not those devious "Step Families" again. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Black Dog Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 Sure - if you want some granular data that the Census doesn't provide - collaborate with others who require the same data and sponsor your own survey. Other countries get by just fine. Again: by using other mandatory methods of data collection. Not sure why that's not sinking in. Quote
GostHacked Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 Apparently you dont understand what statistics do for us. For instance, and Ill keep it simple for you, lets say a whole buch of people leave Nfld and go to Alba to find work, and decide to stay there. How would the government know that accurately if not for the census. Jail terms for people who don't fill them out are ... dumb. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted February 6, 2015 Report Posted February 6, 2015 Jail terms for people who don't fill them out are ... dumb. A jail term is probably a bit over the top, and I wonder how often that has been pursued. The info is essential to help gov provide services we all demand so there has to be some incentive to provide it. Kind of a put up or shut up situation. Quote
Big Guy Posted February 6, 2015 Author Report Posted February 6, 2015 I believe that no one in Canada has ever been jailed for refusing to fill out a census form. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
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