Shady Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 But he DID follow the US into the war in Iraq. Harper wasn't PM in 2002. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 That depends on how you define success. If it means turning the place into a giant sucking vacuum cleaner where all the crazy Islamists go to die, then that's success, as far as I'm concerned. Problem is we set the vacuum cleaner to BLOW instead of SUCK, and we unwittingly created the most furtile breeding ground for "crazy islamists" that has ever existed. So by your OWN definition this has all been a massive unmitigated failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Harper wasn't PM in 2002. You didnt read my post then? The Iraq war never ended... its still happening. The US and its allies are still trying to quell the same sunni insurgency they were in 2006, and we finally joined in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Nope! Canada WILL have ground troops in a spring offensive against ISIL. Ill check back in with you for a little "I told ya so!" once its announced. Well I do hope you're wrong but I won't bet against it you. Who knows, Harper is devious enough to may have a scheme where he cand send troops off to Iraq and then use that to try and tell us we have to keep him in power whilst we are at war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 The question you have to ask is was all that mucking about worth it for the US to endure the 9/11 attacks? And you also have to remember that 9/11 was a TINY attack on Americans compared to its own governments GWOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 You didnt read my post then? The Iraq war never ended... its still happening. The US and its allies are still trying to quell the same sunni insurgency they were in 2006, and we finally joined in. No, it's not the same insurgency. Regardless, Obama declared mission accomplished when Iraq was in good shape, and withdrew all support, even when warned against it. No residual force at all. Now the chickens are coming home to roost as a result of the Syrian civil war. But I understand the Harper Haters wanting to tie him to everything. May as well blame him for the Vietnam War too if it makes you feel better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 We can certainly blame the Vietnam War on the exact same doctrinal idiocy that's still driving your ilk's bizzaro world view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 It's the attempt and desire to make a big deal out of this that's most revealing. And it is a fact that Harper would have joyfully followed Bush into Iraq, he probably still chafes at our not going. You make no sense at all with this line. The author of the 'big deal' that points out Trudeaus latest foot-in-mouth episode is Warren Kinsella- who is a seriously hardcore Liberal . What is Kinsella- a Liberal stalwart for decades- 'revealing'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 We can certainly blame the Vietnam War on the exact same doctrinal idiocy that's still driving your ilk's bizzaro world view. What's my world view? Is it similar to JFK's and Lyndon Johnson's? Cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Which brings to mind the question how come Vietnamese terrorists aren't seeking vengeance against America? Vietnamese people credit ordinary Americans with stopping the war I.E. the hippies, leftists, and other ordinary people that protested and even died to stop their government from it's depredations in SE Asia. That's what Muslims need to see happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 You make no sense at all with this line. The author of the 'big deal' that points out Trudeaus latest foot-in-mouth episode is Warren Kinsella- who is a seriously hardcore Liberal . What is Kinsella- a Liberal stalwart for decades- 'revealing'? Again, I say, did you miss where I said there's no shortage of stupid in Ottawa and, why can't you righties imagine a world in which people that are not with you might also not be with anyone else?Partisanship is another thing that's like religion in the way it makes everything worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Which brings to mind the question how come Vietnamese terrorists aren't seeking vengeance against America? Vietnamese people credit ordinary Americans with stopping the war I.E. the hippies, leftists, and other ordinary people that protested and even died to stop their government from it's depredations in SE Asia. That's what Muslims need to see happening. That could be a reason... It could also be that they haven't been indoctrinated as children into believing that their all-powerful sky-god will reward them handsomely if only they'd blow themselves up and take some infidels out with them... I'm not saying that it is an either/or proposition... I think religious indoctrination has something to do with it though... just like many Christians in the west see Muslims as evil and hell-bound anyway, so we may as well send them their sooner rather than later. Religion poisons everything! Again, I say, did you miss where I said there's no shortage of stupid in Ottawa and, why can't you righties imagine a world in which people that are not with you might also not be with anyone else? Partisanship is another thing that's like religion in the way it makes everything worse. Well said... Edited January 23, 2015 by The_Squid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Sure you can when you're dealing with a culture that places such a high premium on vengeance. None of those who flew into the World Trade Center had been harmed by the US, nor had Osama bin Laden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 It certainly was forseeable and it was forseen. You would have to be stupid to not see that US foreign policy in the middle east would eventually enrage its opponents to the point where they struck back. Americas own intelligence agencies had been warning them of this for years. US foreign policy in the middle east was roughly the same as everyone else's foreign policy in the middle east, but nobody is flying planes into Russian or Chinese buildings. The reason the US is singled out is largely because of its strong, continuing support for Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 No, it's not the same insurgency. Regardless, Obama declared mission accomplished when Iraq was in good shape, and withdrew all support, even when warned against it. No residual force at all. Now the chickens are coming home to roost as a result of the Syrian civil war. But I understand the Harper Haters wanting to tie him to everything. May as well blame him for the Vietnam War too if it makes you feel better. That's quite the revisionist history. Harper wanted to join Bush but Chretien had the brains and the backbone to say no. Which is one reason why Bush is now a war criminal and Chretien not. Nobody is tieing the outcome of that to Harper, he had nothing to do with it anyway. And the ISIS war currently going on you can lay squarelly at the feet of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld. I doubt anyone other than that crew could have botched so many things. First of all, did he think OSB was in Bafghdad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Even Bin Laden himself declared the exact reasons for the attacks which means even he thought A=B Bin laden's reasons were his outrage that the US had stationed some troops in Saudi Arabia (to protect from foreign aggression) at the request of the Saudi government. Bin Laden felt that the filthy non-believers were a pollution on the purity of his holy soil. This is what outraged him to murder. So are you saying you expect western nations to operate their foreign policy without regard to the statements, wishes or desires of foreign governments but instead to listen to and obey every local xenophobic religious freak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Problem is we set the vacuum cleaner to BLOW instead of SUCK, and we unwittingly created the most furtile breeding ground for "crazy islamists" that has ever existed. So by your OWN definition this has all been a massive unmitigated failure. Seems to me the West got more terrorist attacks from the middle east before we went into Iraq and Afghanistan than afterward. So the 'breeding ground' was already operating at a pretty good pace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 That's quite the revisionist history. Harper wanted to join Bush but Chretien had the brains and the backbone to say no. Australia went into Iraq in 2003, took 1 casualty, then left after a while. They returned in 2005 and took several dozen casualties, and left in 2008. Chretien instead committed Canada to a decade in Afghanistan, and we took 158 fatalities. Why are you lauding Chretien's great wisdom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeNumber Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 US foreign policy in the middle east was roughly the same as everyone else's foreign policy in the middle east, but nobody is flying planes into Russian or Chinese buildings. The reason the US is singled out is largely because of its strong, continuing support for Israel. He also condemned what he said were U.S.-abetted massacres done to Muslim communities from Palestine to Chechnya and the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children who died from lack of food and medicine due to what he called “unjustifiable” U.S.-led sanctions on the country during the 1990s. As well as the deployment throughout the Gulf states of U.S. forces, particularly in Saudi Arabia. I'm not agreeing with anything he said but those are the reasons he stated in his letter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 He also condemned what he said were U.S.-abetted massacres done to Muslim communities from Palestine to Chechnya and the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children who died from lack of food and medicine due to what he called “unjustifiable” U.S.-led sanctions on the country during the 1990s. As well as the deployment throughout the Gulf states of U.S. forces, particularly in Saudi Arabia. I'm not agreeing with anything he said but those are the reasons he stated in his letter. Sure, and I'm sure every other wacko group could give you 'reasons' why they hate people or want to kill them, but does that make it reasonable? US support of Israel and daring to put their filthy non-Muslim boots on the ground in certain Muslim countries where they were invited by the local government were the basis of his outrage. He threw in the rest as a sop to the entire world of Muslims to garner more support. The Russians and Chinese have been systematically slaughtering, murdering, torturing and oppressing their own Muslim populations for years and no one in the middle east really gives a good damn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeNumber Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Seems to me the West got more terrorist attacks from the middle east before we went into Iraq and Afghanistan than afterward. So the 'breeding ground' was already operating at a pretty good pace. It can easily be argued that Canada has suffered more now than we did before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 It can easily be argued that Canada has suffered more now than we did before. Not from anyone in the middle east. Local Muslim losers who had NO CAUSE to justify any sort of revenge attacks decided they felt more solidarity with foreigners than with Canadians. And their sympathies weren't for the poor harmless civilians who had been killed, remember, but for their ISIS brethren. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeNumber Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Sure, and I'm sure every other wacko group could give you 'reasons' why they hate people or want to kill them, but does that make it reasonable? US support of Israel and daring to put their filthy non-Muslim boots on the ground in certain Muslim countries where they were invited by the local government were the basis of his outrage. He threw in the rest as a sop to the entire world of Muslims to garner more support. The Russians and Chinese have been systematically slaughtering, murdering, torturing and oppressing their own Muslim populations for years and no one in the middle east really gives a good damn. I never once said any of it was reasonable. I was just saying it's what you can expect when dealing with people in that part of the World and is it really worth endangering the lives of your own people to support any of the allies in the region who probably couldn't give a damn about you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeNumber Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Not from anyone in the middle east. Local Muslim losers who had NO CAUSE to justify any sort of revenge attacks decided they felt more solidarity with foreigners than with Canadians. And their sympathies weren't for the poor harmless civilians who had been killed, remember, but for their ISIS brethren. Doesn't matter the motive, it still never happened before we decided to get involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 overthere, on 23 Jan 2015 - 2:55 PM, said: You make no sense at all with this line. The author of the 'big deal' that points out Trudeaus latest foot-in-mouth episode is Warren Kinsella- who is a seriously hardcore Liberal . What is Kinsella- a Liberal stalwart for decades- 'revealing'? Again, I say, did you miss where I said there's no shortage of stupid in Ottawa and, why can't you righties imagine a world in which people that are not with you might also not be with anyone else?Partisanship is another thing that's like religion in the way it makes everything worse. Sorry, I did not realize you were in Ottawa. I just cannot relate what you say to the situation. Trudeau says something both patently stupid and a bit frightening in its naivete when sp[ewed from somebody with aspirations to lead.. A hardcore lifer partisan Liberal criticizes him for that. Nobody from 'the right' is involved in this one. Please try again but harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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