RCMP have right to collective bargaining

[jacee]

RCMP officers have much less independence from administrative and political control than any other police forces in Canada, so I am glad to see the officers pursuing their right to collective bargaining.

/Supreme Court says Mounties have right to bargaining

The court says the Mounties have to be sufficiently independent to have some meaningful form of collective bargaining with management.

The current RCMP labour relations regime denies RCMP members that choice and imposes on them a scheme that does not permit them to identify and advance their workplace concerns free from managements influence, the court said.

Edited January 16, 2015 by jacee

[Big Guy]

An interesting move. The RCMP have always been treated as an arm of our military receiving the same respect and membership in Legions etc. I wonder if the military has been considering unionizing and how that would be received by our government and Canadian people.

[poochy]

They are an essential service which will greatly limit their ability to take any sort of job action against their employer, union or not.

[TimG]

I wonder if the military has been considering unionizing and how that would be received by our government and Canadian people.

The problem with unions is not their existence but their demands for excessive wage and benefit packages or work place rules which reduce the efficiency of the organization and reward poor performers. An RCMP bargaining group would likely be a good thing if it did not forget that the job of the RCMP is to serve the public rather than themselves. That said, I doubt that would happen. Edited January 16, 2015 by TimG

[The_Squid]

An interesting move. The RCMP have always been treated as an arm of our military receiving the same respect and membership in Legions etc. I wonder if the military has been considering unionizing and how that would be received by our government and Canadian people.

RCMP have never been an arm of the Canadian military and to say so is a huge stretch of why and how they were founded and their policing role within Canada. There was some small overlap with the military during wartime (Boer War & WWI and WWII acting as military police overseas), but very little.

[guyser]

There was some small overlap with the military during wartime (Boer War & WWI and WWII acting as military police overseas), but very little.

Ahem....

South African War (Boer War), 1899-1902

The North-West Mounted Police was able to raise more trained mounted men than the regular army. Many Members and ex-Members of the Force were recruited at NWMP posts and made up approximately 40% of the newly raised Canadian Mounted Rifles. This unit was highly effective overseas and earned a reputation for aggressive scouting.

WW1

On April 6, 1918, after Commissioner Perry threatened to resign from the RNWMP, the government relented and permitted members of the Force to volunteer for overseas service to reinforce the Canadian Cavalry Brigade which was serving on the Western Front. This was enabled by many factors including the good conduct of enemy aliens living in Western Canada and the fact that the United States declared war on Germany on April 6, 1917 thus bringing their own homeland security legislation into action south of the border. A cavalry draft was held between April 18th and May 13th with 495 recruits being brought into the Force for the purpose of serving overseas with the Canadian Expeditionary Force. On May 15, 1918 the RNWMP transferred 12 officers and 726 N.C.O.'s and constables to the Canadian Expeditionary Force as "A" Squadron RNWMP under the command of Supt. George Leslie Jennings (O.147). "A" Squadron RNWMP saw action in France and Belgium serving as dispatch riders on the front lines, performing with distinction at the battle of Mons in 1918. A second squadron was raised between August 17th and September 9th for service in Siberia as a result of the Russian Revolution and the fact that the Bolshevik Soviet signed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk with Germany in March 1918. This squadron would be part of the allied support for those who opposed the Bolsheviks. On October 1, 1918 190 men were transferred to the Canadian Expeditionary Force as "B" Squadron RNWMP under Major George Stanley Worsley (O.123) which was sent to Vladivostok in order to provide guard duties on the Trans-Siberian railway. Two Members received awards for gallantry while serving in Siberia: James Edward Margetts (RegNo. 7373) and Philip Sheridan Bossard (RegNo. 7398).

WW2

When Canada declared war on Nazi Germany on 10 September 1939, the Commissioner of the RCMP, Stuart Taylor Wood, had already offered men to form a Provost Company. In August, when war appeared inevitable, he contacted the Department of National Defence with his plan for a Mounted Police contribution to the war effort. His offer was accepted.

Maybe some of them were MP's .....

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/hist/conn-eng.htm

[Moonbox]

They are an essential service which will greatly limit their ability to take any sort of job action against their employer, union or not.

That hasn't stopped the police or fire dept unions from negotiating rich compensation packages.

[jacee]

I think the benefit for the officers is an improvement in their ability to withstand political interference in their work and decisions. Presently they have no recourse against political orders, and there is interference with politicians' access to the RCMP too.

http://thecanadianpoliticalscene.blogspot.ca/2013/05/is-rcmp-riddled-with-political.html?m=1

On April 25, 2013, a meeting between a parliamentarian and RCMP officials was thwarted by Toews. The reason for the following email , under new policy, is all meetings between RCMP officials and parliamentarians "have to first be approved by the minister's office. This email is to cancel the luncheon."

It's interesting that the more Harper tries to constrain and control ... the more people seek independence.

Unintended consequences ...

.

[Topaz]

Well if provincial police and security guards can belong to a union why not RCMP? I just wonder what happens if they feel they have to strike though. The bodyguards of Harper get paid $800. day, so I'm told must be danger pay.

[Wilber]

It's a good thing IMO. Maybe they will have enough influence to make sure their members are properly armed. I was blown away to learn the RCMP involved in the New Brunswick shootings still didn't have the carbines recommended after Mayerthorpe. RCMP leadeship has been criminally negligent in this regard. Our patrol officers have had C8's in their cars for almost a decade.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Wilber

[Derek 2.0]

It's a good thing IMO. Maybe they will have enough influence to make sure their members are properly armed. I was blown away to learn the RCMP involved in the New Brunswick shootings still didn't have the carbines recommended after Mayerthorpe. RCMP leadeship has been criminally negligent in this regard. Our patrol officers have had C8's in their cars for almost a decade.

In fairness, there is quiet a difference between procuring for and training a force measured in the tens of thousands versus a small local force measured in the hundreds…...regardless, I doubt a “RCMP union” will have little impact on issues other than pay and benefits for its membership.

[Wilber]

I don't know, our force used an RCMP range to qualify on theirs. My son was sent to Toronto to qualfy on the Arwen gun. Where there is a will there's a way and the list of dead Mounties is growing. Methinks RCMP brass is a little short on will at times.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Wilber

[Derek 2.0]

I don't know, our force used an RCMP range to qualify on theirs. My son was sent to Toronto to qualfy on the Arwen gun. Where there is a will there's a way and the list of dead Mounties is growing. Methinks RCMP brass is a little short on will at times.

Perspective is clearly needed……..it took the Canadian Forces ~ a decade to transition from the C1 family to the C7/C8 family………The RCMP is adding a capability to their force that they haven’t had since they rode horses and carried 1894 Winchesters…….

I have no problem dumping on the RCMP oligarchs when warranted, but the issuance of military carbines to the force is no small task and it wouldn’t surprise me the least if a complete implementation isn’t achieved until post-2020…….

[Wilber]

I have no problem dumping on the RCMP oligarchs when warranted, but the issuance of military carbines to the force is no small task and it wouldnt surprise me the least if a complete implementation isnt achieved until post-2020.

Too damn slow, they needed them yesterday. Too bad they don't seem capable of getting their fingers out on such important issues as their own members safety. We're talking rifles that have been in production for years and used by numerous police forces and militaries, not F-35's. Edited January 18, 2015 by Wilber

[Derek 2.0]

Too damn slow, they needed them yesterday. Too bad they don't seem capable of getting their fingers out on such important issues as their own members safety. We're talking rifles that have been in production for years and used by numerous police forces and militaries, not F-35's.

But it is not simply ordering a rifle (Aside from the fact Colt Canada can only produce so many a year), but ensuring RCMP members receive proper training in its use, but also creating policy on its usage, creating/expanding training establishments and ensuring proper armourer ......

If as mentioned the Canadian Forces took a decade changing platforms (Likewise the United States military decades long transitioning from the M-14 to M-16) or even the RCMP itself spending the later 80s through the 90s transitioning from revolvers to semi-automatics, its not unreasonable to expect the introduction of a rifle, to a force namely trained in the use of handguns and shotguns, to take some amount of time.

And you're right, we are talking rifles, rifles to be given to officers that (outside members with military/ERT service) have never been trained in their safe and proper use........

[Wilber]

Every Regina graduate since Mayerthorpe should have been trained in their use. This weapon is used by many police forces and militaries including the SAS. I find it hard to believe it would take Colt Canada 15 years to equippe the RCMP. It is obvious that not much urgency has been put into this matter and members have paid with their lives. We are talking about people who are already trained in firearms checking out on a new type, not learning to fly the latest aircraft or operate a new ship or fighting vehicle.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Wilber

[Derek 2.0]

Every Regina graduate since Mayerthorpe should have been trained in their use. This weapon is used by many police forces and militaries including the SAS..

I agree, but this will require significant changes to the RCMP’s firearms training program, which at Depot is currently 10-14 days exposure to their handguns and shotguns……..to train new members in the effective use of the rifles will take much longer, likewise annual training to requalify on.

I find it hard to believe it would take Colt Canada 15 years to equippe the RCMP

Why? Colt Canada, the only firearms producer in Canada, is actually very small, with only several hundred employees and limited production.

It is obvious that not much urgency has been put into this matter and members have paid with their lives.

No doubt, but it could be just as easy (as indicated in the report) said members may not have died if they had of been wearing ballistic vests/plate carriers they were issued (IIRC were in their trunks).......but with that, training ~20000+ members in its proper use will/is taking time.

We are talking about people who are already trained in firearms checking out on a new type, not learning to fly the latest aircraft or operate a new ship or fighting vehicle.

The RCMP, as mentioned, are given ~two weeks introduction to firearms in Depot then three days annually to requalify on their service weapon……..versus a member in the Canadian Forces given months on initial training, followed by months annually……….as said, outside of members with military service, or those that own privately AR-15s or other rifles, the vast majority of members have no more exposure to the C7/C8 family of rifles then the average Canadian………

Equipping the RCMP with carbines is far more complex then handing the rifles out of the box with a couple of boxes of ammunition* and instructing the members to read the user manual.

*I would also wonder if the shortages in 5.56mm/.223 Rem ammunition has also played into delaying introduction of the rifle.

[Wilber]

Other forces were able to requalify their personnel quite quickly. What is so anal about th RCMP that it takes them years to come up with a simple requalification program? They are ten years behind just about every police force on the continent. As I said, not much effort has gone into this.

[Derek 2.0]

Other forces were able to requalify their personnel quite quickly. What is so anal about th RCMP that it takes them years to come up with a simple requalification program? They are ten years behind just about every police force on the continent. As I said, not much effort has gone into this.

In my opinion, as noted the size of the force and the fact that the Mayerthorpe inquiry wasn't completed until Spring 2011........

[Wilber]

There can be all kinds of excuses for delay but that doesn't make them acceptable. Inertia in large government organizations is an unfortunate fact of life. Because they have never had to change, they often stick to doing things for no other reason than that's the way they have always done it. When they do have to change, they often want to reinvent the wheel rather than taking and adapting the experience of others. I've seen the process in action.

The RCMP do more rural policing than just about any police force in existence, making timely backup more problematic. Ensuring they are adequately armed to cope with long gun carrying perps should be its highest priority.

[Derek 2.0]

The RCMP do more rural policing than just about any police force in existence, making timely backup more problematic. Ensuring they are adequately armed to cope with long gun carrying perps should be its highest priority.

That is a very astute point, and unlike larger urban forces with a ERT just a phone call away, such rural detachments are often on their own.......don't misunderstand me, I've no issues with the RCMP (or police in general) being armed with a carbine, and don't really know why the RCMP abandoned the issuing of carbines generations ago………

[Wilber]

Well, it seems the RCMP brass has finaly got it but I don't know why professional police officers would wait 6 years for a report to tell them the obvious. Their hand gun armed officers are sitting ducks when confronted with a determined long gun carrying perp.