Proportional Representation Discussion

[jacee]

So you say, but the last thing I want is more government by committee. I'll pass on PR.

You really don't like our current system do you?

Committee is where legislation is discussed and modified with input from all parties. It's the most valuable work of government.

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[Moonbox]

Why should 10,000 people in one province have as much say as 1,000,000 in another? Even if you go with an individual vote,areas that are less populated could still get the shaft.

because the electoral system is split into ridings, not provinces.

[Boges]

PEI having 4 seats has always grinded my gears. Demographics also have to be considered too not just population. All the territories combined don't even amount to half of a urban or suburban riding but the demographics and territory of a Yukon, NWT or a Nunivat riding are too too much for one MP to represent.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Boges

[Moonbox]

You really don't like our current system do you?

I didn't say that. I'm just cynical about politics in general.

Committee is where legislation is discussed and modified with input from all parties. It's the most valuable work of government.

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You can call it what you want, but I'd heavily debate the effectiveness of multi-party committees who are working towards opposite ends and invariably playing political games. At least the decision-making isn't done that way, since decision-making by committee usually ends up with good ideas getting strangled into a mutated amalgam of mediocre/bad ideas.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Moonbox

[Keepitsimple]

The government that is closest to the people has the most day-to-day effect on them. In a country like Canada, talking about PR at the Federal level without having a more "direct" democracy at the Municipal and Provincial levels makes no sense. Take a look at the responsibilities of each level of government. If people want to have more say on things that affect their day to day lives - then they should advocate for change at the Minicipal and Provincial levels

Municipal governments pick up your garbage, pave the streets, hire police, collect your house taxes, enact bylaws, operate shelters and school boards and a myriad other things that affect people in a fairly personal manner. They are closest to the people.

Provincial Governments are next "closest" to the people - they are responsible for property and civil rights, administration of justice, natural resources and the environment, education, health, welfare, Vehicle and driver licenses and more.

The Federal Government is farthest from the people and has the least day-to-day effect - they are responsible for areas such as: defence, foreign policy and relations with other countries, the Canadian postal service, matters of criminal law and citizenship. It shares responsibility for some areas such as immigration, with the provinces.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Keepitsimple

[Moonbox]

The Federal Government is farthest from the people and has the least day-to-day effect - they are responsible for areas such as: defence, foreign policy and relations with other countries, the Canadian postal service, matters of criminal law and citizenship. It shares responsibility for some areas such as immigration, with the provinces.

Unfortunately it seems to be the government on which people focus the most attention. It's far more glamorous I guess.

[Boges]

They also take the most off your paycheque.

[jacee]

I didn't say that. I'm just cynical about politics in general.

Well this is the time and place to make suggestions for improvements.

You can call it what you want, but I'd heavily debate the effectiveness of multi-party committees who are working towards opposite ends and invariably playing political games.

At least the decision-making isn't done that way, as decision-making by committee usually ends up with good ideas getting strangled and a mutated amalgam of mediocre/bad ideas replacing them.

I hear ya. It can be a painful process and sometimes a compromise result satisfies no one. However, without input to our laws from a variety of perspectives representing all Canadians, there can be defects in the laws.

So it's a question of HOW it's done.

Any suggestions?

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[jacee]

The government that is closest to the people has the most day-to-day effect on them. In a country like Canada, talking about PR at the Federal level without having a more "direct" democracy at the Municipal and Provincial levels makes no sense. Take a look at the responsibilities of each level of government. If people want to have more say on things that affect their day to day lives - then they should advocate for change at the Minicipal and Provincial levels

Municipal governments pick up your garbage, pave the streets, hire police, collect your house taxes, enact bylaws, operate shelters and school boards and a myriad other things that affect people in a fairly personal manner. They are closest to the people.

It makes some sense to implement it on a small scale first, try it out at the municipal level maybe even trying out different types of PR iin different places. However, municipal politics is not party-based so I'm not sure how that would work.

/ontario-proposal-would-let-municipalities-adopt-ranked-ballot-voting

And it also makes sense to keep having the discussion at the provincial and federal levels too.

[Keepitsimple]

Unfortunately it seems to be the government on which people focus the most attention. It's far more glamorous I guess.

It's also because - as I laid out - a lot of people don't understand the roles that each level of government plays. I've been out of academics for a long, long time but it appears that civics classes aren't a priority in our primary schools. It's astounding at how little people actually know about the way Municipal, Provincial and Federal governments work - who's responsible for what.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Keepitsimple

[Keepitsimple]

It makes some sense to implement it on a small scale first, try it out at the municipal level maybe even trying out different types of PR iin different places. However, municipal politics is not party-based so I'm not sure how that would work.

/ontario-proposal-would-let-municipalities-adopt-ranked-ballot-voting

And it also makes sense to keep having the discussion at the provincial and federal levels too.

Not at the Federal level. Municipal will not work with PR - but if people feel there is a lack for democracy because of incumbents having too much of an advantage - there are things like run-offs and term limits to try and address any perceived inequities. But if one seriously believes that PR is the way to go - they should advocate at the Provincial level first. We are fortunate to have territories and 10 Provinces that can test it out over time and develop Best Practices. It makes no sense trying to throw a PR blanket over the entire Federal process without trying it out at the Provincial level. If it can't be "sold" in a couple of provinces to start with, then we'd be flogging a dead horse.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Keepitsimple

[Argus]

If they are all center, then why do we still buy into the left/right ideologies? Why do they continue to wear a certain political colour if they are all really centrists?

Because they care far more about getting elected and re-elected than what they want to do once in power. And the bulk of the votes are in centre.

[Argus]

In the last 30 years, we had Conservatives from 1984 to 1992 roughly, then liberals until 2006 or so, then conservatives for the last 8 years. Under PR we would have had Liberal minority governments the entire time, as much as you can guess these things.

Which is why Liberals like the idea of PR. The NDP likes it too, because they'd have the balance of power.

Minority governments are governments constantly in election mode, always afraid of making tough decisions, always eager to curry favour with the public at whatever it costs to do so.

[Argus]

So let's change it up a bit more, make the trained seals do some real work on behalf of Canadians, have a purpose instead of just a paycheque, collaborate across party lines to do whats best for ALL Canadians ... people focused, not party.

Are you for real? As if a series of pizza parliaments with makeshift, cobbled together governments would have politicians caring about ANYTHING but pure party politics!

[overthere]

Are you for real? As if a series of pizza parliaments with makeshift, cobbled together governments would have politicians caring about ANYTHING but pure party politics!

Correct.

Every MP of every stripe would spend 95% of their time scheming on how to gain influence and control, the other 5% would be at lunch.

This would be a downgrade from the current 90% spent scheming.

[jacee]

Because they care far more about getting elected and re-elected than what they want to do once in power. And the bulk of the votes are in centre.

So maybe we don't need political parties anymore?

We don't have them at the municipal level.

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[TimG]

So maybe we don't need political parties anymore?

We don't have them at the municipal level.

Political parties exist because creating a brand is the best way to market ideas. Nothing will ever change that. In cities like Vancouver there are municipal parties for this reason. You saw this in Toronto with the unofficial "Ford Party". Edited January 6, 2015 by TimG

[Michael Hardner]

You saw this in Toronto with the unofficial "Ford Party".

Great example. There is no better political brand around these days - even Doug made a respectable run for the mayoralty. Just imagine if we had somebody who cared about people AND money...

[jacee]

Correct.

Every MP of every stripe would spend 95% of their time scheming on how to gain influence and control, the other 5% would be at lunch.

This would be a downgrade from the current 90% spent scheming.

If that's all we expect from them, that's all we'll get.

If we don't like it, we change it.

It's our responsibility.

We pay their salaries.

They work for us.

If we've allowed it to deteriorate that badly, we'd better start changing things up a bit.

.

Edited January 7, 2015 by jacee

[eyeball]

The government that is closest to the people has the most day-to-day effect on them. In a country like Canada, talking about PR at the Federal level without having a more "direct" democracy at the Municipal and Provincial levels makes no sense.

This is why I often mention area-based management boards for things like environmental protection and monitoring. Not all natural resources are managed provincially, like salmon for example which Ottawa is in charge of. Salmon in particular are sensitive to jurisdictional overlap and often lose more than they gain. The feds are responsible for things the province have little or no say in and vise versa often leaving both salmon and everything and everyone that deprnds on them in the lurch.

More localized responsibility for environmental management allows for greater expression of local values and makes use of local ecological knowledge that is often over-looked if not ignored by distant managers. Provincal governments are still far to distant to do an effective job and all to often to me at least, the federal government defers to provincial managers, case in point, logging/agriculture hydro-electric development vs salmon habitat and the salmon the feds are supposed to be responsible for.

I'm not talking about total control just more of a direct voice in a place that can be heard and weighed by people that actually matter. MP's and MLA's just don't cut it anymore. They stopped mattering where it really matters to people decades ago.

[overthere]

If that's all we expect from them, that's all we'll get.

If we don't like it, we change it.

It's our responsibility.

We pay their salaries.

They work for us.

If we've allowed it to deteriorate that badly, we'd better start changing things up a bit.

.

Sure.

But your suggestions about PR won't do it, and I am baffled as to why you think they will.

If you want to force MPs to do their jobs to the specifications of their constituents, then you'll need to give citizens some tools.

Right of recall, right of referendum, term limits, direct elections of PMs....... along those lines.

PR won't help you with your wish list for their conduct.

[jacee]

Sure.

But your suggestions about PR won't do it,

In your opinion. The discussion is important though.

If you want to force MPs to do their jobs to the specifications of their constituents, then you'll need to give citizens some tools.

Right of recall, right of referendum, term limits, direct elections of PMs....... along those lines.

PR won't help you with your wish list for their conduct.

All worth considering.

Shaking them up a bit might be a good thing, reminding them who their real bosses are.

PR will help imo, and it's a discussion that needs to be had nationally and locally.

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[jacee]

This is why I often mention area-based management boards for things like environmental protection and monitoring. Not all natural resources are managed provincially, like salmon for example which Ottawa is in charge of. Salmon in particular are sensitive to jurisdictional overlap and often lose more than they gain. The feds are responsible for things the province have little or no say in and vise versa often leaving both salmon and everything and everyone that deprnds on them in the lurch.

More localized responsibility for environmental management allows for greater expression of local values and makes use of local ecological knowledge that is often over-looked if not ignored by distant managers. Provincal governments are still far to distant to do an effective job and all to often to me at least, the federal government defers to provincial managers, case in point, logging/agriculture hydro-electric development vs salmon habitat and the salmon the feds are supposed to be responsible for.

I'm not talking about total control just more of a direct voice in a place that can be heard and weighed by people that actually matter. MP's and MLA's just don't cut it anymore. They stopped mattering where it really matters to people decades ago.

What are the current and the best case scenarios?

National law, provincial regulation, local implementation?

Can we assume that all local authorities would be committed to the environment, or might some be porking out on development?

.

[jbg]

Are you for real? As if a series of pizza parliaments with makeshift, cobbled together governments would have politicians caring about ANYTHING but pure party politics!

That about says it all about PR. In Italy they're Pizza Parliaments. In Israel, falafel parliaments.

[Moonbox]

Shaking them up a bit might be a good thing, reminding them who their real bosses are.

Changing our electoral system to "shake things up" isn't a very compelling argument.