Education Over Expulsion At Dalhousie

Michael Hardner · January 13, 2015

I spent ten years working with girls in their 20s, remember (up to 5 years back). I know what they were looking for in men. It had not changed since I was 20.

Ok, well with THAT kind of experience, plus the fact that you're an expert on women I'd say 'case closed'.

kimmy · January 13, 2015

It appears the Dalhousie talk has for the moment run its course, so I'll bite on some of these other things that are going around...

See Gamergate for a primer on how males behave in the current century.

I followed Gamergate with passing interest, but I confess I didn't learn anything about how males behave in the current century. Can you expand ot that thought for me?

As I saw it, Gamergate (what a pompous name for it) was essentially a temper-tantrum by a bunch of rejects angry at being called out for being juvenile misogynists.

I didn't learn anything about men from the drama, aside from the small and unrepresentative group who self-identify as S3R10US GAMERZ.

But you saw things differently, apparently. What did you see that I'm missing?

You write as though "Say Anything" was never made...

Wait, is that John Cusack? Dressed as a hobo? Is he driving an unmarked cop car from the 1970s? I have not seen this film.

-k

kimmy · January 13, 2015

Always find it odd that it supposed to be the jocks and other alpha male types that are supposed to have no problems getting girls, yet whenever there's a story out about rape or sexual assault, it's the jocks or frat boys or the like involved. Never the chess club.

I spent some amount of time among both the chess-club types and the sports heroes. .

I think the difference is best summed up by Bull Durham's groupie/philosopher Annie Savoy, when she said "The world is made for people who aren't cursed with self awareness."

With the chess club types, the thing is that they're often highly perceptive. They tend to be acutely aware of their flaws, they tend to be acutely aware of how they're perceived by others, and they tend to internalize it. They experience rejection, they reflect on it, and they come to realize "Girls don't like me because I'm this and this and that and the other thing." And that becomes their reality and limits them each time they interact with a girl. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There are introspective, intelligent, and perceptive people on the popular-guy, athletes, frat-guy side of the fence too, of course, but they're probably not the guys we're talking about when it comes to sex assault cases. I've never known anybody who I know to have committed a date-rape or sex assault or sex-harassment. I've known several who I'd not be the least surprised if they did go on to do something like that. Their prominent characteristics that gave me that impression is a glaring lack of empathy combined with a sense of entitlement. The chess club guy may be too perceptive; this guy isn't perceptive at all. He doesn't notice the feelings of people around him, and he doesn't care. He's used to having his way, and gets mad when somebody says no. If you reject the chess-club guy, he thinks its his fault. If you reject this guy, he thinks its your fault. It can be a little scary to be around this guy, especially if he's had a few drinks.

Anyway, most people don't fall neatly into any sort of description. There's outgoing athletes who are full of empathy and understanding. There's nerds who are oblivious to how obnoxious they are and keep trying regardless of how often they're told no. There's everything in between. But generally, I think there's something to what Annie says about being cursed with self-awareness. Too much can be a bad thing.

-k

kimmy · January 13, 2015

And what have women stated they like most about guys who come onto them, through years and years of polls, surveys and interviews?

Confidence.

Honesty just isn't present in such interactions, not from either side. Since we're talking comedians, perhaps Chris Rock said it best, that when you meet or date someone for the first time you're not seeing them, you're seeing their representative.

Some of those representatives are idiots, of course. Some of them are a lot more cocky than the person they represent (often with liquid reinforcement), and all of them are trying very, very hard to hide their flaws.

That's kind of what I meant. I understand why guys come up to me and tell me a blonde joke. I do. They are, as you say, trying to paint a picture of themselves, show that they're confident and not scared of what I might think of them, that sort of thing. Plus whether I think it's hilarious or whether I tell him he's a jerk, just about any response gives them some kind of opening to talk more.

Confidence is generally pretty attractive... it's usually a sign that somebody has a healthy self-image, some amount of status, achievements and life experience that he's proud of, this sort of thing. Lack of confidence isn't always a sign that somebody is undesirable, but it can be.

Here is the story of the most confident man I've ever met. Waitressing in a little upscale downtown bar as a 21 year old, I one had a customer who still gives me the creeps 10 years later. He's probably 20 years older than me, wearing what looks like an expensive suit, immaculately styled hair, very handsome. I brought him his drink, and he asks what time I finished (understand that this is pretty common) and I said 10. At this point guys who are feeling bold say "Would you like to go someplace afterward?" Not this guy. This guy glances at his expensive-looking watch and says "Knock off early." He said this not in a teasing or flirting way, but like it was a command. This left me a little rattled, and I laughed it off and went to check on my other customers (unfortunately I didn't have many.) Go to the back and pretend to be busy. Go back to check on him, he says there's a restaurant he's heard is good, tells me I'll love it. I laugh it off, tell him I can't. Go to the back, pretend to be busy, wait as long as I can, go back to check on him. He tells me "You've got a seductive smile." That's not a seductive smile, that's my "I'm only smiling because I'm nervous" smile. "If you're not hungry, we'll go straight to my hotel. It's just down the street." I laugh, I tell him no, that's not going to happen, and go into the washroom to try and compose myself. Breathe deeply. Come back out. Notice he's finished his drink. Go over, ask him if he wants anything else, and he says "Yeah, I want you to stop playing around. Do you want dinner or do you want to go straight to my hotel?" I can't take this any more, I go ask the bartender to give him his bill and tell him to leave. I go hide in the kitchen for several minutes. I come back, the guy is gone. The bartender says the guy told him that I'm a cock-tease.

I'm not sure if you can appreciate how unsettling this was. While I don't believe I was in any physical danger while my co-worker and several other customers were present, there was something frightening about this man-- his absolute certainty that he was getting some Kimmy that night, that he was *entitled* to some Kimmy. And that he apparently thought I was leading him on somehow. It wasn't something I was able to just shrug off and forget about.

-k

Bonam · January 13, 2015

With the chess club types, the thing is that they're often highly perceptive. They tend to be acutely aware of their flaws, they tend to be acutely aware of how they're perceived by others, and they tend to internalize it. They experience rejection, they reflect on it, and they come to realize "Girls don't like me because I'm this and this and that and the other thing." And that becomes their reality and limits them each time they interact with a girl. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You may find this of interest:

http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091#comment-326664

(I'd recommend just reading comment 171 that I linked to, not necessarily the whole thread).

kimmy · January 13, 2015

That's nonsensical. For every wife beater there's a woman who married that guy. The prisons are filled with violent scumbags who have devoted wives and girlfriends waiting on the outside. There is no correlation between whether a guy is more 'sensitive' and kind and gentle to who gets the girl. In fact, the saying is, and with some truth to it, 'nice guys finish last'.

Women don't want a nice guy. Well, they do, but mainly they want a hot, sexy guy. They don't have fantasies about meeting a nice, sweet accountant or computer programmer, they have fantasies about a muscular guy who needs a shave and rides a Harley and gets into bar fights, or a billionaire who likes to tie women up and whip them. To women, the perfect guy has to have that rough edge (of course, with a heart of gold buried somewhere deep inside which only they can see).

The idea that most women are secretly daydreaming about biker gang dudes or billionaires with whips is pretty goofy.

Physically attractive, yes. That much for sure. And a cool billion wouldn't hurt, to be honest. But stereotypical "bad boys" stuff is a bunch of clap-trap.

In my view, the #1 thing that attracts women to men is: maleness. Masculinity.

A strong body is a good start, as is financial success. The stereotypical bad-boy shenanigans might dupe young or gullible women as showing masculinity, but most women will grow out of that sooner or later.

A masculine man displays confidence. He inspires confidence in others. He commands respect. He is unashamed, whether it be of his job, or of his appearance, or his hobbies. He is passionate about the things that are important to him, whether it be his work or his hobbies. He's unafraid to say no and stand his ground. He doesn't cave in if you cry or have a temper-tantrum. He doesn't need to undermine others to build himself up, because he is confident in his status and abilities. He isn't a braggart, but when he does talk about himself he can back it up. He's not a big talker, but when he does say something, he means it. He's secure and confident, so he doesn't need to show off to impress people. He is straightforward and direct, not manipulative. He doesn't play games to get what he wants. I could go on like this for a long time.

As for the "nice guy". What I have learned about the "nice guy" is that he's pretty much the opposite of the man I just described. The man I described above is probably a nice guy in every way that matters. The "nice guy" is ironically not very nice.

The "nice guy" is your devoted friend... he'll listen to all your problems while "those other guys" don't care. He's not like "those other guys". He's always there for you, and he'll do anything to help you. That's because somewhere along the line, "the nice guy" got an unhealthy idea of how to relate to women. Perhaps he learned that if you do what mommy tells you and make her happy then she'll give you attention and praise, and he has based his attempts to relate to adult women on this model. "If I just keep doing things for her, sooner or later she'll realize how nice I am and she will love me." He's basically come to think that women are like vending machines, where if you put in enough good deeds, then you can press the button and romance comes out. In fact, "nice guy" is scared to even press the button, fearing rejection. He's standing there feeding good-deeds into the vending machine and hoping that the button will somehow press itself, because he's scared to even attempt to relate to her as anything other than a pal who is always there to lend a hand or go for coffee.

The "nice guy" ends up carrying around a lot of resentment, because no matter how many good deeds he puts into the vending machine, romance never materializes. He tends to wander on a bipolar path between devoted doer of good deeds and passive-aggressive dude who is pissed off about something but is scared to tell you why. Eventually, maybe he snaps and says "I helped you move your couch! I remembered your birthday! I listened to you when you wanted to talk! Why are you dating that other guy instead of me?!?" but probably he holds it inside, because he's terrified that an outburst like that would ruin his chances forever.

The "nice guy" is kind of a weasel. He's manipulative, he'll use guilt to get you to spend time with him. He'll take any opportunity to try to undermine your relationship with "that other guy". Whether it be some piece of gossip or an "believe me, I know guys like that" piece of advice, he'll do what he can to tear down "that other guy". Ultimately, he's a coward, afraid to put his cards on the table, afraid to let you know what he really wants, and yet angry that he's not getting it. And sadly, he probably doesn't even understand any of this. He just knows that he's not getting what he wants from his relationships but he has no idea what he's doing wrong or how to fix it.

-k

Smallc · January 13, 2015

.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Smallc

Smallc · January 13, 2015

Nevermind

kimmy · January 13, 2015

.

!

-k

Bonam · January 13, 2015

A strong body is a good start, as is financial success. The stereotypical bad-boy shenanigans might dupe young or gullible women as showing masculinity, but most women will grow out of that sooner or later.

Yes... most will grow out of it... right around the same time that they realize their biological clock is ticking and they need to have kids asap, which these days is mid 30s.

kimmy · January 13, 2015

You may find this of interest:

http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091#comment-326664

(I'd recommend just reading comment 171 that I linked to, not necessarily the whole thread).

That was really something. I'm not quite sure what, yet. But definitely something. As I've mentioned, my little brother was shy and socially awkward and a target of bullies... as well as being exceptionally intelligent. I see him a bit in that post you linked to.

-k

kimmy · January 13, 2015

Yes... most will grow out of it... right around the same time that they realize their biological clock is ticking and they need to have kids asap, which these days is mid 30s.

That sounds rather bitter, to be honest.

-k

Bonam · January 13, 2015

That was really something. I'm not quite sure what, yet. But definitely something. As I've mentioned, my little brother was shy and socially awkward and a target of bullies... as well as being exceptionally intelligent. I see him a bit in that post you linked to.

-k

There has been considerable online discussion sparked by that comment (which itself was sparked by the Walter Lewin situation). Further reading, if interested:

http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2119

http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/01/untitled/

Honestly, I think a lot of young males that don't fit into something close to the "nerd" stereotype see themselves to various extents in that post (although I doubt many contemplate getting themselves chemically castrated).

Edited January 13, 2015 by Bonam

Michael Hardner · January 13, 2015

But you saw things differently, apparently. What did you see that I'm missing?

Nerds become Alpha when they have cyber-armour to extenuate their strengths. Because they are indeed Nerds, and have been bullied, they don't think it's possible for them to be bullies themselves. This is an aspect of Gamergate I read about.

Wait, is that John Cusack? Dressed as a hobo? Is he driving an unmarked cop car from the 1970s? I have not seen this film.

-k

Nerds have had an unnatural control over popular culture, since Nerds write movies. They write movies where the Nerd is the real prize and the bully is an unlovable brute. See "Biff" in "Back to the Future".

Say Anything is a teen rom-com that was directed by the famous John Hughes. A late-80s teen love story.

cybercoma · January 13, 2015

See Gamergate for a primer on how males behave in the current century.

Or the recent study that found that 1/3 of college men would rape a woman if they could get away with it.

ABSTRACT: Sexual assault is a problem on many college campuses, and many researchers have conducted studies assessing the prevalence of sexual assault perpetration and intentions to be coercive. Behaviorally descriptive survey items (i.e., ‘‘Have you ever coerced somebody to intercourse by holding them down?’’) versus labeling survey items (i.e., ‘‘Have you ever raped somebody?’’) will yield different responses, in that more men will admit to sexually coercive behaviors and more women will self-report victimization when behavioral descriptions are used (Koss 1998) instead of labels. Indeed, some men will endorse items asking whether they have used force to obtain intercourse, but will deny having raped a woman. There has been little research on differences between individuals to endorse a behaviorally descriptive item versus a labeling item. The present study uses discriminant function analysis to separate men who do not report intentions to be sexually coercive, those who endorse behaviorally descriptive intentions but deny it when the word rape is used, and those who endorse intentions to rape outright. Results indicated that participants can be differentiated into three groups based on scores from scales on hypermasculinity and hostility toward women. High hostility toward woman and callous sexual attitudes separated the no intentions group from those who endorsed either intentions to rape or those who endorses only the behavioral description of rape. The two types of offender groups were distinguishable mostly by varying levels of hostility, suggesting that men who endorse using force to obtain intercourse on survey items but deny rape on the same may not experience hostile affect in response to women, but might have dispositions more in line with benevolent sexism.

What does all that academese mean? Men who were blatantly misogynistic were willing to rape women, but those who were not outwardly hostile towards women yet held "callous sexual attitudes" believed that sexual aggression was a normal expression of male sexuality. In other words, they would rape women without recognizing it as rape.

In this particular study, 1/3 of men would rape women, but only 10% recognized it as rape. This demonstrates a cavalier attitude that forcing someone to have sex with you is part of what "normal" male sexuality. In other words, rape culture is real and people like Smallc and Argus are demonstrating here that there's still people who will work overtime to excuse it and even protect it.

cybercoma · January 13, 2015

The "nice guy" is your devoted friend... he'll listen to all your problems while "those other guys" don't care. He's not like "those other guys". He's always there for you, and he'll do anything to help you. That's because somewhere along the line, "the nice guy" got an unhealthy idea of how to relate to women. Perhaps he learned that if you do what mommy tells you and make her happy then she'll give you attention and praise, and he has based his attempts to relate to adult women on this model. "If I just keep doing things for her, sooner or later she'll realize how nice I am and she will love me." He's basically come to think that women are like vending machines, where if you put in enough good deeds, then you can press the button and romance comes out. In fact, "nice guy" is scared to even press the button, fearing rejection. He's standing there feeding good-deeds into the vending machine and hoping that the button will somehow press itself, because he's scared to even attempt to relate to her as anything other than a pal who is always there to lend a hand or go for coffee.

The "nice guy" ends up carrying around a lot of resentment, because no matter how many good deeds he puts into the vending machine, romance never materializes. He tends to wander on a bipolar path between devoted doer of good deeds and passive-aggressive dude who is pissed off about something but is scared to tell you why. Eventually, maybe he snaps and says "I helped you move your couch! I remembered your birthday! I listened to you when you wanted to talk! Why are you dating that other guy instead of me?!?" but probably he holds it inside, because he's terrified that an outburst like that would ruin his chances forever.

The "nice guy" is kind of a weasel. He's manipulative, he'll use guilt to get you to spend time with him. He'll take any opportunity to try to undermine your relationship with "that other guy". Whether it be some piece of gossip or an "believe me, I know guys like that" piece of advice, he'll do what he can to tear down "that other guy". Ultimately, he's a coward, afraid to put his cards on the table, afraid to let you know what he really wants, and yet angry that he's not getting it. And sadly, he probably doesn't even understand any of this. He just knows that he's not getting what he wants from his relationships but he has no idea what he's doing wrong or how to fix it.

-k

The cold hard truth about the "friend zone." Nice guys everywhere need to read this.

Black Dog · January 13, 2015

Actually, I'd like to see evidence of that. I'm not sure it's true.

Generally, stereotypes exist for a reason. Generally, girls are attracted to a certain type of male. It has to do with traits that harken back to more uncivilized days. It hasn't disappeared...just like the strange and disgusting variety of male sexual desire.

These two posts (a demand for evidence followed by a evo-psych "just-so" story) appearing back-to-back made me chortle.

Smallc · January 13, 2015

Even if something exists for a reason, it doesn't mean I don't need proof.

Black Dog · January 13, 2015

That's nonsensical. For every wife beater there's a woman who married that guy. The prisons are filled with violent scumbags who have devoted wives and girlfriends waiting on the outside. There is no correlation between whether a guy is more 'sensitive' and kind and gentle to who gets the girl. In fact, the saying is, and with some truth to it, 'nice guys finish last'.

Women don't want a nice guy. Well, they do, but mainly they want a hot, sexy guy. They don't have fantasies about meeting a nice, sweet accountant or computer programmer, they have fantasies about a muscular guy who needs a shave and rides a Harley and gets into bar fights, or a billionaire who likes to tie women up and whip them. To women, the perfect guy has to have that rough edge (of course, with a heart of gold buried somewhere deep inside which only they can see).

You're conflating sexual fantasies with real life here. What women want when it's just them and their Hitachi magic wand is not the same thing as what they want in an actual partner. Those that confuse the two tend to be miserable.

cybercoma · January 13, 2015

You're conflating sexual fantasies with real life here. What women want when it's just them and their Hitachi magic wand is not the same thing as what they want in an actual partner. Those that confuse the two tend to be miserable.

What? You mean fantasies aren't real life?

Black Dog · January 13, 2015

Even if something exists for a reason, it doesn't mean I don't need proof.

Link.

Smallc · January 13, 2015

Interesting. I actually would have expected a rather even split.

Black Dog · January 13, 2015

Interesting. I actually would have expected a rather even split.

Between what?

Smallc · January 13, 2015

Between the sexually active and non sexually active male.

Black Dog · January 13, 2015

Between the sexually active and non sexually active male.

How do you figure that? I mean, if we are talking jocks and chess club dorks, just the difference in the rates these groups presumably encounter women would tilt the scale dramatically to the jocks even without the toxic cultural influence.

Point here being, and this is something that ties back to the subject of this thread, the difference between the Facebook shenanigans of these Dalhousie dolts and actual sexual violence is one of degree, not kind. They're products of the same brand of masculinity that some consider "normal" and natural.