Michael Hardner Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 Calling them customers takes away from the fiduciary responsibility dentists have with their patients. A shop owner would have no such responsibility to their customers. You're right - poor choice of words. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 This is surprising to me. I work with mostly young people (under 30) and nothing explicit comes up during group social times... young people just know better, I guess... How many are women? Men are under sufficient pressure that I think most are afraid to say anything with sexual connotations at work but women have not been and are pretty much free to say whatever they want. As I said, the great majority of our team then were women in their twenties, most in their early twenties. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 That's unrealistic. You'd have to throw out all of them men. I don't think that would pose any sort of problem for those most angered by this issue. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 What kind of workplace allows inappropriate comments to happen without comment ? That can go wrong pretty easily. The best kind! You have to differentiate between a workplace composed mostly of strangers who don't know each other very well, don't interact a lot, and must therefore be on guard to not cause offense, and a workplace where everyone knows almost everything about each other, goes to each other's homes, goes out together dining and partying, and becomes sort of a family unit. You don't generally get offended by what people say when they're friends because you like them and know they're harmless. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 How many are women? I don't know... close to 50% give or take 10%. Men are under sufficient pressure that I think most are afraid to say anything with sexual connotations at work but women have not been and are pretty much free to say whatever they want. I'm trying to figure out why anybody would say something like that at work.... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 ... a workplace where everyone knows almost everything about each other, goes to each other's homes, goes out together dining and partying, and becomes sort of a family unit. Sounds like pure hell to me. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 I don't know... close to 50% give or take 10%. I'm trying to figure out why anybody would say something like that at work.... Without exception all of the wildest things I heard at work came from women. One told me she'd just tried anal sex for the first time and loved it. I was at a table with three or four one time and they started talking about who could deep throat and who couldn't. On another occasion they compared who shaved all their pubic hair (most). Another talked about her fantasy to have sex with multiple men at once, but that she would never do it unless she was in Europe or somewhere far away. Another volunteered to me that her boyfriend wouldn't perform oral sex on her or touch her below the waist. Yet another was a swinger who had an 'understanding' with her boyfriend, and liked bondage. I could go on and on. Mind you this was over a number of years. Even the one who claimed harassment due to the sexual connotations did it as another girl told the investigator (and me) that she (the complainant) had been there only a week when she was telling her about what sexual positions she liked best with her boyfriend. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 Without exception all of the wildest things I heard at work came from women... I really think having an environment like that is a bad idea. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 Sounds like pure hell to me. Why? I know there is this idea among some that work is for work and that's that, but I've always thought that foolish. We spend 8 hrs a day at work. When you take away sleep, showering/shaving and other toiletry time, dinner and travel that is by far the largest block of time in your life and will be until you retire. Why would you not want to make it a place with laughter and friendship? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 Why would you not want to make it a place with laughter and friendship? You can have laughter and friendship without creating an environment that demonstrably is not welcoming to newcomers, people who want to be private about their sexual practices (!), and ... people who want to not be distracted from the work. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 Where do you WORK anyway ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) You can have laughter and friendship without creating an environment that demonstrably is not welcoming to newcomers, people who want to be private about their sexual practices (!), and ... people who want to not be distracted from the work. Most of these inappropriate types of conversations took place in private, in cubicles, in cars, etc. The environment was pretty welcoming and fun, and we functioned far better as a team and were happier and had more interest in making sure things worked well than anywhere I worked afterward. Had pretty low absenteeism and turnover rates too. That was when I was a clerk and then assistant/acting manager for CRA. I made the mistake of getting promoted, though. Lots more dull, dreary meetings, paperwork and mind-numbing red tape. Lots less fun. Mind you, in the last five years CRA has cracked down heavily on any human-like behaviour across the board, including stern warnings that there is to be no humor or jokes in emails. Edited December 30, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Michael Hardner Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 That was when I was a clerk and then assistant/acting manager for CRA. As I suspected. Somehow, heavily regulated and unionized workplaces like the government and CBC seem to have the least professional environments. Anyway... private conversations between co-workers are one thing, public discussions - ie. on facebook, in open areas - are quite another. Surely as a manager, you can see that newcomers could POSSIBLY be put off with explicit sexual discussion in the workplace... sheesh... this should be obvious to people in this day and age... something isn't computing here... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
cybercoma Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 As I suspected. Somehow, heavily regulated and unionized workplaces like the government and CBC seem to have the least professional environments. Anyway... private conversations between co-workers are one thing, public discussions - ie. on facebook, in open areas - are quite another. Surely as a manager, you can see that newcomers could POSSIBLY be put off with explicit sexual discussion in the workplace... sheesh... this should be obvious to people in this day and age... something isn't computing here... What isn't computing is the fact that Argus is trying to justify an indefensible position to the point that it sounds absurd. Nobody in their right mind would say it's appropriate or acceptable for workers to talk about raping and abusing their colleagues in a public space. Nobody, believes those things should go unpunished either. It's absurd that anyone would think the things posted in that Facebook group are in any way acceptable. Imagine if they were posted on a bulletin board in a staff room. It's nonsense. So you can't wrap your head around it because Argus is trying to justify an abhorrent and indefensible position. It makes me wonder if he really believes this hegemonic masculinity BS. Quote
Argus Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 What isn't computing is the fact that Argus is trying to justify an indefensible position to the point that it sounds absurd. Oh, face it. All positions which don't agree with yours are absurd and make you angry. That's just where your head is at these days. Imagine if they were posted on a bulletin board in a staff room. Why should I imagine something that dumb? It wasn't posted on a staff bulletin board. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 30, 2014 Report Posted December 30, 2014 As I suspected. Somehow, heavily regulated and unionized workplaces like the government and CBC seem to have the least professional environments. Oh, don't worry. they've changed now. Any hint of human-like behaviour will draw formal disciplinary hearings now. It's as stifling a workplace as you could possibly hope for, where any non-work-related conversation is frowned upon and all emails and web usage are tightly monitored. Of course, almost everyone hates management and hates their jobs, but I'm sure that wouldn't concern you. Anyway... private conversations between co-workers are one thing, public discussions - ie. on facebook, in open areas - are quite another. Surely as a manager, you can see that newcomers could POSSIBLY be put off with explicit sexual discussion in the workplace... sheesh... this should be obvious to people in this day and age... something isn't computing here... We were generally careful about who we hired to make sure they had a good perspective and sense of humour. We didn't really want dull as dishwater types. And as I said, the only 'public' conversation that moved into a sexual area tended to be in the lunch (board) room and was invariably brought up by the girls. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jacee Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 Oh, face it. All positions which don't agree with yours are absurd and make you angry. That's just where your head is at these days. Why should I imagine something that dumb? It wasn't posted on a staff bulletin board. No, FACEBOOK. . Quote
jacee Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 What isn't computing is the fact that Argus is trying to justify an indefensible position to the point that it sounds absurd. Nobody in their right mind would say it's appropriate or acceptable for workers to talk about raping and abusing their colleagues in a public space. Nobody, believes those things should go unpunished either. It's absurd that anyone would think the things posted in that Facebook group are in any way acceptable. Imagine if they were posted on a bulletin board in a staff room. It's nonsense. So you can't wrap your head around it because Argus is trying to justify an abhorrent and indefensible position. It makes me wonder if he really believes this hegemonic masculinity BS.Ya maybe he's just 'kidding' ... baiting.That must be it. . Quote
cybercoma Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 Oh, face it. All positions which don't agree with yours are absurd and make you angry. That's just where your head is at these days. Yeah. You keep saying that whenever someone disagrees with you. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 Oh, don't worry. they've changed now. Any hint of human-like behaviour will draw formal disciplinary hearings now. It's as stifling a workplace as you could possibly hope for, where any non-work-related conversation is frowned upon and all emails and web usage are tightly monitored. Of course, almost everyone hates management and hates their jobs, but I'm sure that wouldn't concern you. Gee. Somehow it seems like there *might* be some landscape in there in-between. You know - in between discussing sex positions at work and only discussing work-related issues. I seem to enjoy my work-life in that very space, so forgive me if I can't relate to the binary work-life you describe: where people either enjoy themselves discussing offensive material, or behave as if they are in 1984. We were generally careful about who we hired to make sure they had a good perspective and sense of humour. My imagination whirls at the possibilities of your interview questions. the only 'public' conversation that moved into a sexual area tended to be in the lunch (board) room and was invariably brought up by the girls. Not OK. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Big Guy Posted December 31, 2014 Author Report Posted December 31, 2014 I submit that everyone has parameters to their own personal sensibilities. When in any group, the conversation may easily lead to subject matter outside of your personal comfort levels. Those with little self confidence will go along with the group, laugh at what others laugh at while trying to hide their discomfort. That is the way that bullies, racists and bigots get away with their insults. Not challenging unsavory statements is read as agreement by members of the group. I suggest that those confident in their views will state their displeasure with the direction any conversation is taking. I have been in social groups at a gathering (with or without alcohol) where someone states, "I find that offensive and would appreciate not breaching that opinion in my presence" - or something similar. Or, "I have a wonderful mother, wife and daughter and find those kind of comments offensive - please do not repeat them". In every situation I can recall, the bully, bigot, racist or misogynist is embarrassed, finds themselves a minority and quickly changes the subject - or leaves. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
SpankyMcFarland Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 This sort of thing used to be merely spoken. Now, through a miracle of modern technology, young people can ruin their lives by documenting every depraved idea they have for posterity (and don't most of us entertain some unspeakable thought at some point or another?). I just don't get Facebook at all. Nobody under 40 should be trusted with it. Quote
Argus Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) Gee. Somehow it seems like there *might* be some landscape in there in-between. You know - in between discussing sex positions at work and only discussing work-related issues. In government!? Have you ever seen what a large, badly led bureaucracy looks like!? If it decides to ensure no 'offensive conversation takes place it doesn't dip a toe in the water, but comes up with rules that say anything which 'might' be offensive to any group, be it racial groups, ethnic groups, religious groups, gender groups, the elderly, rural people, immigrants, liberals, conservatives, socialists, communists, basically ANYONE is forbidden. Which means, basically almost every conceivable topic of conversation. I seem to enjoy my work-life in that very space, so forgive me if I can't relate to the binary work-life you describe: where people either enjoy themselves discussing offensive material, or behave as if they are in 1984. How do you know your conversations aren't offensive to someone? My imagination whirls at the possibilities of your interview questions. I personally liked to ask if they would take offense at having paperclips and elastics tossed at them. Not OK. Women's conversations, on-line or not, are very, very, very rarely the subject of concern from official authorities, regardless of how sexualized or sexist they might be. Edited December 31, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
WestCoastRunner Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 Women's conversations, on-line or not, are very, very, very rarely the subject of concern from official authorities, regardless of how sexualized or sexist they might be. Oh really. And how do you know that besides from your opinions? Female teachers are put on trial for having sex with their minor students, why wouldn't they be held accountable for other sexualized or sexist remarks? Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Michael Hardner Posted January 3, 2015 Report Posted January 3, 2015 In government!? Have you ever seen what a large, badly led bureaucracy looks like!? Aside from how government manages things, your attitude seems to be that if you can't discuss sex at work then you're doomed to live under 1984. How do you know your conversations aren't offensive to someone? They're not offensive to normal people. Again, you seem to have a binary view of workplace etiquette. It's really not a huge problem, and your inability to come right out and say that makes me wonder about your perspective on these things. Women's conversations, on-line or not, are very, very, very rarely the subject of concern from official authorities, regardless of how sexualized or sexist they might be. Ok, so you work in an insane environment then, by your own account. Can you change it to be more human ? If not, why don't you quit ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
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