Education Over Expulsion At Dalhousie

[cybercoma]

Rape is a very popular sexual fantasy for both genders.

Completely and unacceptably abhorrent commentary and justification for violence against women. Rape is a common fantasy. Whoopty friggin do. Maybe being a terrorist is a common fantasy too, but when you post about that shit online you get SWAT teams kicking your door in. Talk about beating and raping women, then guys like you have a good laugh and pat these guys on the back.

Unless of course it was a woman in your family they were talking about beating and raping. I'm certain it wouldn't be ok then.

[cybercoma]

When you were a younger guy, did you ever threaten to kill any of your friends?

Oh. It's just their youthfulness, you say? These are men who finished an undergraduate degree and were in the final year of their graduate dentistry program. These are men who are less than a year away from being professionals in their field and have nearly a decade of post-secondary schooling. Not some children who don't know any better or are simply immature.

[Smallc]

Rape and abuse is not "normal male sexual interest" any more than pedophilia is a "normal" sexual interest.

Then you don't hang out with many men. I don't either. That's part of the reason.

[Michael Hardner]

I've never seen the point in pretending that things that do happen actually don't. Murder is an act that harms someone else. Fantasy doesn't.

To be clear - you stated that raping, chloroforming was "normal male interest"...

[Michael Hardner]

When you were a younger guy, did you ever threaten to kill any of your friends? Did they ever threaten to kill you? I'm not talking about a serious threat here. I'm talking about the "I"m gonna kill you, you $%#!" or "You are dead! You are so dead!"

That's really not at all the same thing.

[Smallc]

To be clear - you stated that raping, chloroforming was "normal male interest"...

No, I was clearly talking about fantasies.

[Michael Hardner]

No, I was clearly talking about fantasies.

Ok - well, this is what I read:

"This isn't about normal sexual interest, Argus. It's about hate and violence against women:

"that joked about rating prospective victims for hate-sex, chloroforming women and raping them until they lost consciousness ""

That is normal male sexual interest. To think otherwise is to be naive. There's a reason that fantasy porn that involves violence is so popular.

Explain to me again what is "normal" here then ?

[Smallc]

Men fantasizing about such things is completely normal. Men acting on those fantasies isn't.

[Michael Hardner]

Again, depending on how you define 'normal'. And, I doubt that forming an online chat group to discuss such fantasies is common... to use a less loaded word than 'normal'. To set one up with your own name is not acceptable in this day and age.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/how-common-is-your-sexual-fantasy-9835480.html

There's a table of what people fantasize about. Fantasies about forcing someone to have sex are held by about 20% of males, far fewer in number than men fantasizing about having sex with two men.

[Smallc]

You mean men admitting to that fantasy. Even still, an NDP vote percentage worth of people isn't abnormal.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Smallc

[Michael Hardner]

You mean men admitting to that fantasy. Even still, an NDP vote percentage worth of people isn't abnormal.

You're talking about statistics now, not "normal" in terms of complying with the norms of social life. I don't know how they administered the survey, but they got some shocking admissions out of it so I'm pretty sure it wasn't nominal testimony.

So, we have people publicly discussing that they fantasize about behaving this way. How would you expect people to feel when they read that ?

[jacee]

Men fantasizing about such things is completely normal. Men acting on those fantasies isn't.

Private fantasies are nobody's business.

But these were acted on, made public, targetted at specific women. That's everybody's business, sexual, possibly criminal harassment because of the threat element. It's not benign like private fantasy.

.

Edited December 29, 2014 by jacee

[Smallc]

The fantasies were not acted on, they were shared. There's a huge difference. Sharing fantasies is another thing that men have done forever.

[cybercoma]

The fantasies were not acted on, they were shared. There's a huge difference. Sharing fantasies is another thing that men have done forever.

If someone publicly said they were fantasizing about raping and killing your fiancée, what would you think of that?

[Smallc]

i wouldn't be happy. It doesn't mean that it should lead to anything.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Smallc

[Michael Hardner]

i wouldn't be happy. It doesn't mean that it should lead to anything.

How about if a male teacher publicly mused about his fantasizing about underage girls ?

[Smallc]

How about if a male teacher publicly mused about his fantasizing about underage girls ?

That's a totally different type of fantasy, depending on how under age we're talking about. That example doesn't serve to inform what happened here.

[Michael Hardner]

That's a totally different type of fantasy, depending on how under age we're talking about. That example doesn't serve to inform what happened here.

How does it not ? Somebody publicly ruminating on an abusive act that they fantasize about. Is it more aligned to our current example if they're less under age ?

I'm trying to get at this: what are the principles involved here that we need to balance ? I would say that they are:

1 ) Individuals are entitled to feel safe and secure with publicly entrusted caregivers and professionals.

2 ) Individuals are entitled to their own thoughts and private comments, understanding that if comments are made incautiously, and become public then there might be an effect on their livelihood.

[Argus]

Completely and unacceptably abhorrent commentary and justification for violence against women.

But we weren't talking about violence against anyone. We were discussing some guys joking on Facebook.

Rape is a common fantasy.

Thank you for your first intelligent comment on this subject.

[Argus]

To be clear - you stated that raping, chloroforming was "normal male interest"...

To be clear - he stated that talking about and joking about women in a sexual context was normal male interest.

[Argus]

That's really not at all the same thing.

Yeah, it really is. Everyone knew it wasn't a serious statement of intent. Even when someone was angry it wasn't a serious statement. Guys who play with chloroform and talk about hot chicks can make snickering suggestions about other uses for the chloroform without serious intent.

[Michael Hardner]

To be clear - he stated that talking about and joking about women in a sexual context was normal male interest.

I reposted the exchange - I'm sure if you read it again you can understand my confusion.

[Argus]

How about if a male teacher publicly mused about his fantasizing about underage girls ?

Do you seriously believe none of those male teachers fantasizes about the underage females they see all day?

My guess is almost all of them have had such fantasies.

[Argus]

Chloroform kind of blows away and possibility of 'consent'. It's violence.

How do you still not grasp the concept of consent?

How do you still not grasp the concept of a bunch of guys joking around?

Have you ever actually spent any time at all with a young man?

I suspect these perps are likewise cement headed, so I don't think face to face mediation is appropriate. Universities like to hide sex crimes under 'confidential' agreements.

The law & public courts I say

They haven't broken any laws. Despite what you and some other women might wish, men lusting after women is not illegal.

[Michael Hardner]

Yeah, it really is. Everyone knew it wasn't a serious statement of intent. Even when someone was angry it wasn't a serious statement. Guys who play with chloroform and talk about hot chicks can make snickering suggestions about other uses for the chloroform without serious intent.

It's not the same thing, for a few reasons: "I'm going to kill you" is actually a pretty common expression, especially when used casually between people that you know and trust. Making statements about doing harm to other people is not a common expression. Moreover, something that's so specific in terms of methodology, and in terms of how it relates to your profession ie. drugging somebody, can in no way be considered the same type of statement.

If everybody knows it's not serious then why are people taking it seriously ? The answer is that words mean things and people have to be careful with them.