jacee Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 "Mental health" is more an art than a science. Things get done because they are fads until enough damaged has been caused to convince people it was a bad idea. Electro-shock therapy is one example that comes to mind. Or lobotomies. What I find tiresome are people who make pronouncements about what "professionals" believe without any actual knowledge of the caveats and uncertainties that would go along with any such professional opinion. In most cases when people appeal what "experts" believe they are are only repeating the opinion of vocal activists as opposed to the the silent majority which would often takes a much more nuanced view. So we should believe you instead of those with gender dysphoria and mental health experts? I think not. . Quote
TimG Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) So we should believe you instead of those with gender dysphoria and mental health experts?.Well, for starters you should determine the full range of opinion among "mental health experts" along with all of the caveats and uncertainties that go with those opinions. Simply latching onto the opinions of a few activists that get media attention is not rational. Nor will the scientific literature necessarily be free of bias since data is so easy to manipulate by people with an agenda and when it comes to this topic there are a lot of people with an agenda. Lastly, as I said before, I have some first hand experience with addicts and I have seen how well meaning people who enable addicts prolong suffering. But even then there can be no hard rule because sometimes it short actions that enable addiction will lead to a long term recovery - but only if the end goal is not forgotten. Edited December 17, 2014 by TimG Quote
jacee Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 Well, for starters you should determine the full range of opinion among "mental health" experts along with all of the caveats and uncertainties that go with those opinions. Simply latching onto the opinions of a few activists that get media attention is not rational. Nor will the scientific literature necessarily be free of bias since data is so easy to manipulate by people with an agenda and when it comes to this topic there are a lot of people with an agenda. ... says the man with an agenda. . Quote
eyeball Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 Well, for starters you should determine the full range of opinion among "mental health experts" along with all of the caveats and uncertainties that go with those opinions. Simply latching onto the opinions of a few activists that get media attention is not rational. Nor will the scientific literature necessarily be free of bias since data is so easy to manipulate by people with an agenda and when it comes to this topic there are a lot of people with an agenda.Sorta like the agenda you have against scientists you mean?Lastly, as I said before, I have some first hand experience with addicts and I have seen how well meaning people who enable addicts prolong suffering. But even then there can be no hard rule because sometimes it short actions that enable addiction will lead to a long term recovery - but only if the end goal is not forgotten.Well I can't argue with personal anecdotes...I recall all the personal experience I've had with people who have opinions about mental disease. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Boges Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 Another question. Isn't labelling Gender Identity as a "Mental Health Issue" kind of indicate there's something wrong with it? It's something that needs to be fixed? Quote
TimG Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 Isn't labelling Gender Identity as a "Mental Health Issue" kind of indicate there's something wrong with it? It's something that needs to be fixed?You fix mental health issues by dealing with the mind. You don't mutilate the body because someone has mental health issues. Quote
jacee Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) Another question. Isn't labelling Gender Identity as a "Mental Health Issue" kind of indicate there's something wrong with it? It's something that needs to be fixed? It is a mental condition.It is not a mental disorder. It can give rise to mental health issues - anxiety, depression etc. . Edited December 17, 2014 by jacee Quote
TimG Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 It can give rise to mental health issues - anxiety, depression etc.Semantics. Everyone has to deal with issues that cause 'anxiety, depression etc.'. The difference between a healthy person and an unhealthy person is how they manage those issues. Addicts use substances. The gender confused obsess about their body. Addicts need to learn how to cope without substances. There is nothing wrong with saying the gender confused need to accept the body they have. Saying that radical surgery is required to allow someone to cope is like saying that an addict needs drugs to cope. Quote
eyeball Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 And curiously enough coping is exactly what most addicts who are not prevented from using drugs do. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
TimG Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) And curiously enough coping is exactly what most addicts who are not prevented from using drugs do.No one is talking about preventing the gender confused from getting these operations. The question is whether these operations should be seen as a positive mental health outcome or a failure like a addict who still uses drugs to cope. Edited December 17, 2014 by TimG Quote
overthere Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 No one is talking about preventing the gender confused from getting these operations. The question is whether these operations should be seen as a positive mental health outcome or a failure like a addict who still uses drugs to cope. False analogy. The experience of gender reassignment surgery is far more profound than, say, a course of methadone treatment or a stint in rehab. Quote Science too hard for you? Try religion!
TimG Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) The experience of gender reassignment surgery is far more profound than, say, a course of methadone treatment or a stint in rehab.Addicts who recover must under go profound personal transformations. Dealing with the physical withdrawal symptoms is the easiest part of the problem. Rehab is simply a way to explain to the addict in a controlled environment what transformations need to occur. Actually completing these transformations is up to the addict and usually takes years. Edited December 17, 2014 by TimG Quote
eyeball Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 Many times the transformations don't occur so the least harmful approach is to simply accept the things you can't unchange or in this case...change.. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
jbg Posted December 17, 2014 Author Report Posted December 17, 2014 You're not paying ... or voting here jbg. You have no grounds for a "beef" in this. . Read the opening post. The order was Andrew Cuomo's and he's the governor of New York. Sure I am paying. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
TimG Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) Many times the transformations don't occur so the least harmful approach is to simply accept the things you can't unchange or in this case...change..Sure. But this argument means it would be irresponsible to tell a child that they should go on hormones just in case they fail at learning how to cope with who they are. Edited December 17, 2014 by TimG Quote
jacee Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 Read the opening post. The order was Andrew Cuomo's and he's the governor of New York. Sure I am paying. My apologies. . Quote
eyeball Posted December 17, 2014 Report Posted December 17, 2014 Sure. But this argument means it would be irresponsible to tell a child that they should go on hormones just in case they fail at learning how to cope with who they are.Perhaps but we're not trained professionals so what we think about that is neither here nor there. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
sharkman Posted December 18, 2014 Report Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) The issue of insurance paying for a prescribed sex change or a change following a doctor(s) consultation doesn't affect, bug or mpact me in any way I can see worrying about. The thought of the public weighing in on what's right or proper from a mental health perspective will however definitely galvanize me. The thought of people like yourself having any influence on what society should or shouldn't sanction in the area of mental health is a red line. I stand opposed. Ah, but of course YOUR views should have influence on what society sanctions, because…? More nonsense. Edited December 18, 2014 by sharkman Quote
Peter F Posted December 18, 2014 Report Posted December 18, 2014 The issue of insurance paying for a prescribed sex change or a change following a doctor(s) consultation doesn't affect, bug or mpact me in any way I can see worrying about. The thought of the public weighing in on what's right or proper from a mental health perspective will however definitely galvanize me. The thought of people like yourself having any influence on what society should or shouldn't sanction in the area of mental health is a red line. I stand opposed. Full agreement here. That the non-mental health boffins don't agree with the actual boffins doesn't hold much weight - some - but not much. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
eyeball Posted December 18, 2014 Report Posted December 18, 2014 Ah, but of course YOUR views should have influence on what society sanctions, because? More nonsense.Because I'd place responsibility for deciding what's appropriate treatment in the hands of trained professionals.Real nonsense would be leaving things like this up to laymen who place greater emphasis on things like religion and politics instead of pertinent knowledge. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
TimG Posted December 18, 2014 Report Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) Because I'd place responsibility for deciding what's appropriate treatment in the hands of trained professionals.You mean trained professionals like the ones that brought us electro-shock therapy, lobotomies, euthanasia and recovered memory syndrome? The general public has a legitimate right to question the procedures recommended by professionals and in some cases, decide that the recommended treatments are ethically wrong. Edited December 18, 2014 by TimG Quote
Black Dog Posted December 18, 2014 Report Posted December 18, 2014 Complete nonsense. Telling "transgender" people to live with their body is no different than telling an anorexic teenage to live with hers. People are born with the bodies they have. Mutilating it to conform with someone's view of their identity is never justified. Telling someone that self-mutilation will make the happy is just vile. Telling someone they should just live with the body they have (for no particular rational reason) and deny them a chance to actually be happy, is much worse. Quote
TimG Posted December 18, 2014 Report Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) Telling someone they should just live with the body they have (for no particular rational reason) and deny them a chance to actually be happy, is much worse.Telling a drug addict that they should stop using the substance that allows them to cope is denying them the chance to be happy. Yet we have no issue with that even if the addict is functional. Or are you going to start arguing that it is wrong to tell functioning addicts to stop using? Edited December 18, 2014 by TimG Quote
cybercoma Posted December 18, 2014 Report Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) A drug addict will be killed by the substances they put into their body or the mental state they put themselves in. A sex change won't kill a transgendered person that chooses to go that route. In fact, it will make their life significantly better.TimG, you want a simile for this? It's that you're denying the drug addict rehab when it comes to trangendered people. That's the comparison. The comparison isn't giving the drug addict more harmful substances so they continue to destroy themselves. You're critical of the cure, which is helping them get off the drugs and in this case allowing transgendered people to be the gender that they are. Edited December 18, 2014 by cybercoma Quote
Black Dog Posted December 18, 2014 Report Posted December 18, 2014 Telling a drug addict that they should stop using the substance that allows them to cope is denying them the chance to be happy. No, it's denying them the chance to keep using drugs. Getting people off drugs is beneficial for a number of reasons, from keeping them out of jail or the grave, to enabling them to address the underlying causes of their drug dependency (drug addicts being roughly twice as likely to suffer from mood and anxiety disorders as the general population). Once again, your attempt to draw a parallel between the two conditions falls flat. Quote
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