Does Israel have a right to exist?

[bush_cheney2004]

...In a democratic country everyone is treated equally and has equal rights. There should be an absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges.

Israel has some semblance of a democracy, but because it lacks in the above, it fails in be a true democratic nation.

Better include all the nations with "royals" then, because that is "hereditary". Hardly equal rights for all. Israel is actually more democratic if that be one of the measures.

Israel's right to exist comes from Israelis, not some "crown".

Edited December 6, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[Peter F]

Nor does it right to exist come from being a Jewish state. In fact becoming a Jewish state, in Rue's explanation, doesn't mean anything at all. It's pap for the masses.

[jacee]

Overthere in the context of Dre's response, since he thinks it does not matter Israel be Jewish ...

Oh Rue, this repetitive misrepresentation of dre (and me ... and others) is getting old and tired.

Dre said:

If Israelis want Israel to be a Jewish state then that is their right, and nobody should interfere with it. They can define themselves however they want to, but they do not have the right to compell anyone else to recognize anything at all.

And that's my position too.

Your continual misrepresentation of this position is disingenuous propaganda, imo.

.

[jbg]

I'm not talking about what happened in 1947 or in 82 BC.

I mean right now.

Not interested in but but but but.....

Yes or no.

We can poll the Palestinian state question later

The right question is "does Israel have a right to exist as a Jewish state"? Thus rephrased I voted "yes."

[overthere]

The right question is "does Israel have a right to exist as a Jewish state"? Thus rephrased I voted "yes."

So Israel would not have a right to exist as a not-specifically-any-religion state?

[jbg]

So Israel would not have a right to exist as a not-specifically-any-religion state?

Why should Israel's identity be up for grabs while that of Jordan, Syria, Hamas-stan (Gaza), the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, IS, and just about any of the other motley assortment of states not be up for grabs?

[jbg]

Oh Rue, this repetitive misrepresentation of dre (and me ... and others) is getting old and tired.

Dre said:

If Israelis want Israel to be a Jewish state then that is their right, and nobody should interfere with it. They can define themselves however they want to, but they do not have the right to compell anyone else to recognize anything at all.

And that's my position too.

Your continual misrepresentation of this position is disingenuous propaganda, imo.

.

The Arab countries and Palestine under Arafat put Israel's status as a Jewish state in issue. Maybe they should be sorry they asked.

By insisting on a "right of return" Arafat was threatening to flood Israel with non-Jewish immigrants who would speedily change the character of the Jewish State. Also, in reading newspaper footage from the mid-1940s, the Arabs repeatedly objected to Jewish immigration, sometimes verbally and sometimes with violence.

It is fatuous to contend that this is a new issue. The Jewish character of modern Israel has always been at the heart of the matter.

[marcus]

By insisting on a "right of return" Arafat was threatening to flood Israel with non-Jewish immigrants who would speedily change the character of the Jewish State.

The right of return is under international law since these people actually lived in Israel and not decided to immigrate to Israel from a far away place. It's something that you need to comprehend and live with it. Israel needs to deal with this reality as well and make a real effort to try to respond to it. Perhaps a compensation package is the way to go for taking these people's towns, villages and homes in what is now Israel.

[jacee]

The Arab countries and Palestine under Arafat put Israel's status as a Jewish state in issue. Maybe they should be sorry they asked.

By insisting on a "right of return" Arafat was threatening to flood Israel with non-Jewish immigrants who would speedily change the character of the Jewish State. Also, in reading newspaper footage from the mid-1940s, the Arabs repeatedly objected to Jewish immigration, sometimes verbally and sometimes with violence.

It is fatuous to contend that this is a new issue. The Jewish character of modern Israel has always been at the heart of the matter.

It's not the 1940's anymore.

Obviously "Jewish state" and "right of return" are competing issues.

I agree with marcus that compensation in lieu of right of return - both money and land considerations - is an avenue to be explored that might provide a peaceful long term resolution.

Much like resolution of Indigenous land claims in Canada is necessary to compensate for land illegally and aggressively taken over.

.

[jbg]

The right of return is under international law since these people actually lived in Israel and not decided to immigrate to Israel from a far away place. It's something that you need to comprehend and live with it. Israel needs to deal with this reality as well and make a real effort to try to respond to it. Perhaps a compensation package is the way to go for taking these people's towns, villages and homes in what is now Israel.

I happen to like the idea of compensation. But not directed through the PA, and it would have to be binding on all purported descendants of refugees.

[GostHacked]

Overthere in the context of Dre's response, since he thinks it does not matter Israel be Jewish we suspend reality and ignore the fact that it does matter to Hamas, Abbas, Intifada Palestine, Palestiniah Jihad Al Asqa Martyr Brigade, Fatah, Iran, Hezbollah, ISIL, AL Quaeda, on and on.

In his debating position what he feels is all that matters,

Dre has pointed out several times that her dislike of any state being recognized as a religious state. I feel the same way. Any government that patrons a god in a sense is not something that I feel we need in modern secular society.

Any government that depends on a religion to operate and decide it's policies are not looking at the best interest of it's people. I know you've made the claim that Arab/Muslims living in Israel are treated as equals. This policy of making it a true Jewish state automatically puts those others in a second class citizen type situation. They are not treated as equals no matter how much it is trotted out.

[GostHacked]

So Israel would not have a right to exist as a not-specifically-any-religion state?

No country has the right to exist. No people has a right to exist. They exist because they did things to make sure they keep existing. Usually that means someone else is going to get shafted somehow.

[overthere]

No country has the right to exist. No people has a right to exist. They exist because they did things to make sure they keep existing. Usually that means someone else is going to get shafted somehow.

So you favour the Arab street on this question, that if neighbouring states can muster enough firepower, Israel should be exterminated?

Would you then apply your same logic to the existence of the neighbours?

If Israel could exterminate Syria, Jordan, Gaza etc they would be in the right because they can do it?

[overthere]

Why should Israel's identity be up for grabs while that of Jordan, Syria, Hamas-stan (Gaza), the Palestinian Authority, Egypt, IS, and just about any of the other motley assortment of states not be up for grabs?

I did not say their identity is up for grabs. I don't care what they call themselves. And I don't accept your premise that " Israel have a right to exist as a Jewish state". The 'Jewish State" is a red herring and a favorite strawman of the haters. Israel and anyody else can call themselves what they wish, why would anybody care?

Your adjective is entirely secondary to the real question.

Your assortment of states are also welcome to naming themselves, and also subject to the same question of legitimacy as is Israel. That is for another thread, innit?

[GostHacked]

So you favour the Arab street on this question, that if neighbouring states can muster enough firepower, Israel should be exterminated?

If you can read, you would conclude that I do not think Israel should be exterminated. Regardless of my stance that it really should not be existing in the first place.

However if Israel wants to take a hypocritical approach .... meaning putting the Palestinians in concentration camps (Gaza, and limited movement via checkpoints and settlements in the West Bank) all while crying about the holocausts in Germany, I really can't shed a tear for Israel or the Jewish people that live there.

If you want to talk about firepower, how did Israel manage to fight off all the surrounding Arab assaults? It is not because they are right or anything, it is because they had better weapons and operational tactics.

Would you then apply your same logic to the existence of the neighbours?

If Israel could exterminate Syria, Jordan, Gaza etc they would be in the right because they can do it?

Israel would love to see Iran exterminated. Israel has also attacked both Iraq and Syria in provocative attacks on their nuclear facilities. Blatant acts of war. Israel has been doing sorties in Syria along side the US/Canada and to some extent NATO. Turkey is part of NATO. Israel and Turkey don't exactly get along. Something not reconcilable there.

Rue trotted out the Balfour Declaration before. But now we know the Brits never honored that declaration in the end. A useless point that some use to prop up the notion that creating a new Israel was the right thing to do.

If Germany was really responsible for the holocaust, why was a part of Germany not cut out for them? The answer is because the Jews always wanted this right of return to the ancient homeland. Right were modern Israel exists.

Yes Israel would wipe out all those if it could. If it was politically ideal to do so. And with the rampant terrorist activity created by the security vacuum of disbanding the military and police in Iraq, it seems more so they would want to attack. To prevent the terrorism from spilling over into Israel. But do we want to blame the Arabs for that or the decades of long term foreign intervention and essential ego-polictal control from the so called 'world powers'?

The Arab spring was not something domestic. It was foreign contrived and created. Some of my evidence was the British SAS with weapons and explosives in Libya who were attempting to meet with the rebel leaders. Even John McCain had met ISIS leaders in Syria and said they were an OK bunch of guys. ISIS good, Al-Queda bad?

Edited December 8, 2014 by GostHacked

[overthere]

If you can read, you would conclude that I do not think Israel should be exterminated. Regardless of my stance that it really should not be existing in the first place.

However if Israel wants to take a hypocritical approach .... meaning putting the Palestinians in concentration camps (Gaza, and limited movement via checkpoints and settlements in the West Bank) all while crying about the holocausts in Germany, I really can't shed a tear for Israel or the Jewish people that live there.

It seems very clear that you are a firm believer that might is right. Fair enough.

In regard to the OP question, you're a solid 'no'. You don't think Israel has any right to exist, and if it should happen they were exterminated it would be fair play given their record as you see it.

Israel would love to see Iran exterminated. Israel has also attacked both Iraq and Syria in provocative attacks on their nuclear facilities. Blatant acts of war. Israel has been doing sorties in Syria along side the US/Canada and to some extent NATO.

But isn't that just part of the natural order of things in your world? As you say "They exist because they did things to make sure they keep existing.". So if a states existence depends on 'doing things', you must support Israels perception of a threat and their reaction to that threat?

Your posts read like a madndatory, forced march to mutual destruction.

[GostHacked]

It seems very clear that you are a firm believer that might is right. Fair enough.

I don't believe it is right, but those in power have that exact mentality. It's not acceptable either way. But it is the reality we live in. Colonial expansionism showed us that might is right. It still happens today. The US has might and is able to project itself around the world. Are they right in doing so? Or is it because they have the might to do so?

In regard to the OP question, you're a solid 'no'. You don't think Israel has any right to exist, and if it should happen they were exterminated it would be fair play given their record as you see it.

I will extend that to all nations. No nation has the right to exist. Not 100 years ago, many of these 'nations' had not existed in the Middle East. It was all the part of the British mandate. Those people should have a say in how their 'nation' is created. But we see might is right, and someone else made those decisions for them. Canada has been a so called nations for longer than Israel or Iraq, Syria ect. I guess I am missing something overall with it being a right.

The US broke away from the UK rule because they manged to fight off the Brits. They managed to keep their nation intact by defeating the enemy. They won by might not because they have any kinds of rights.

But isn't that just part of the natural order of things in your world? As you say "They exist because they did things to make sure they keep existing.". So if a states existence depends on 'doing things', you must support Israels perception of a threat and their reaction to that threat?

Your posts read like a madndatory, forced march to mutual destruction.

But is the threat real? This wont be a good explanation, but the Jews have no real existential threat. Ancient Israel was destroyed, they were kicked out, and yet they are still here and not only surviving, but thriving with a new nation in that ancient birthplace.

Regardless of everything, there is still a decent Jewish population on this planet. They did not survive by being weak or stupid. Manipulative and coercive, sure. But they are not weak or stupid.

[overthere]

So you see Jews as being manipulative and coercive?

[bush_cheney2004]

So you see Jews as being manipulative and coercive?

Not as much as the Canadian Catholics and American Protestants...Israel is not much bigger than tiny New Jersey !!

[marcus]

Not as much as the Canadian Catholics and American Protestants...Israel is not much bigger than tiny New Jersey !!

Oops. Looks like your propaganda image forgot all about the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza not belonging to Israel.

[bush_cheney2004]

Oops. Looks like your propaganda image forgot all about the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza not belonging to Israel.

Thanks for that...it makes Israel even smaller than conquered Canada or the U.S.

[Rue]

Marcus now makes the sweeping proclamation that Israel has "some semblance of democracy", what ever that means, "but because it lacks in the above," whatever that means, "it fails to be a true democratic nation".

Now of course the thread has to do with whether Israel has the right to exist as a state, and now we have Marcus once again not addressing the issue but making subjective statements Israel is not a true democracy.

Now of course what does that mean other than he takes this thread to use it as a platform to piss on Israel and not address the issue? Was the thread, states that are not democratic should not exist? Was that the question.

Of course not....but hey why address the question. I mean Marcus will make it clear time and time again he will use any thread as an opportunity to insult and put down Israel and say what it is NOT, but he can't go further than that and as a result his responses are necessarily stunted and meaningless. His standard of democracy is unexplained, its just thrown out. It also is never applied to any other country in the Middle East.

Now as for Jacee she wanted to defend Dre's position and that for me was "adorable" since we are using subjective references oh what the hell I thought I would throw that one in since we are sharing.

Bottom line Jacee, read what Dre wrote. Dre's words in post 58, and I do get his or is it her position that, he does not recognize state religion or as he/she said, "I don't recognize state religions period." My criticism is he/she never applies that equally to Muslim countries that do not separate their religion from their political beliefs and because he.she does not, his/her comments become absurd, because it is the very reason Muslim countries in the Middl East will not separate religion from state, they forced Jews to create their own country.

As I stated Jews did not suddenly wake up one morning and say-"h I know let's start a state". Their response was in direct reply to religious states that were Christian or Muslim persecuting Jews.

Jews had no choice. Stay in states of the Muslim world and continue to be defined as khafir and dhimmi and be treated as second class inferiors and remain where in Europe after 6 million were gassed and all their homes were destroyed or property stolen?

The fact is even if they wanted to return after WW2 the UN did NOT do a damn thing to help them. Elenor Roosevelt not the UN, that one woman in her capacity as protector of Jews in the UN had to take on the entire UN, all of the European powers, and Harry Truman to even admit Jews had no place to go and had no choice but to flee to Israel. In fairness to France and the US they allowed Jews related to French or American citizens in, no other counry did. Holland did too but Holland's Jews were wiped out as were Denmark's and Norway's.

As I stated, Jews created Israel as an existential response to extermination and persecution. It wasn't a religious concept. Some readers still do not get it. Saying Israel is a Jewish state, does not mean it imposes a uniform Jewish religion-nonsense. Zionists were not religious. Most were atheists. To this day there is a never ending debate that will never end as to how Jews define themselves and religious practices are only one component. If the identity of the Jewish collective was simply based on religion and being able to practice religion, there would be no issue. As inferior dhimmi Jews could pray. Praying in itself was never the only issue.

So again, the problem with the anti Israel experts on this board is they will not make an effort to find out that Zionism which is the political concept of a Jewish state, is not a Jewish religious state, it is a Jewish national state. The definition of Jew is not limited to one who follows Judaism-it is one who by ancestry is descended from Jews and may or may not follow the religion, but is persecuted simply because of their Jewish identity.

In Zionism, the jewish collective identity is expressed through the state, as a nationality no different than how the Irish, Italians, Scottish, Japanese, Chinese, Belgians, Czechs, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians, do it. So Dre's trying to restate it as implementing a religion on people through a state is nonsense. Its a misrepresentation of the worst kind. Its part if the myths repeated time and time again on this forum about Zionism being "racist" and other absurd descriptions.

Now Jacee also skipped over another one of Dre's comments. Dre stated and I quote, "The problem isn't that anyone cares what Israel does in terms if making Judaism part of its civil society.."

That remark which Jacee of course ignored is nonsensical and as I and others have pointed out the Muslim world of the Middle East through its Arab League sharia law nations and its hundreds of terror cells has made it a point to care..they have made it clear Israel can not be Jewish and they will never stop disputing its existence until it stops being Jewish.

The refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state by the Muslim world is as Dre is very well aware is not about implementing Jewish religion in civil society. Its always been there. That is not even the issue. That is a complete misstatement of the actual dispute. The dispute is about assuring Jews being treated equally to Muslims in assuring the state recognizes them not as dhimmi and khafir but as equals to Muslims when it comes to voting, owning land, running a business. In Zionism the state can not be used as an agent of Islam or Christianity to treat Jews as inferiors based on religious beliefs as to Jews.

Israel came about as a universal sufferage movement,a reaction to not having the same POLITICAL and NATIONAL and CITIZENSHIP rights as Muslims. It didn't just magically appear in a vacuum. It came out of necessity precisely in response to Muslim tyranny and Christian persecution in Europe.

Now where Dre was challenged as being completely inconsistent and Jacee ignored is that one one breath, he/she stated ' I don't recognize state religion", then switched to saying " the problem isn't that ANYONE cares what Israel.."

What Dre personally believes was not and is not the issue. So switching from his/her personal disbelief of "religious" states to referring to "anyone" and using that term "anyone" as a catch all generalization to speak on behalf of the entire world's opinion is where I challenged Dre.

I also challenged Dre on another point Jacee ignored. Dre stated that Israel's "demand" it be recognized as Jewish is new.

His/her words were; "...new demand that others outside Israel announce their recognition of Israel's state religion..."

Again this is sheer nonsense. That has always been the point of creating Israel from the get go and has been denied by Muslim Sharia states from the get go. That is not new. All anyone has to do is read the dialogue of conflict dating back to the mid 1800's to see that.

When Jews asked to be recognized as a Jewish state it meant they desired a national state institution to protect Jews and allow the right of Jews to vote, own land, to chose any profession and be protected from state discrimination simply because they are Jews.

What nonsense to try redefine Zionism as demanding people recognize the Jewish religion. Its always been about recognizing Jews as a collective people not about our religion. Netanyahu has never said,say Mr. Abbas you must recognize the 5 books of the Old Testament. What a crock.

Israel's Chief Rabbinate and is religious courts and its National Religious Party are simply some of many components in a state of comlplex components. The views of the Chief Rabbinate are not automatically imposed by the state although he would love to if he could get away with it. Israel does not like Muslim states or Christian states impose religion on people through a Muslim clergy council, an Ayatollah or a Pope or Archbishop. Jewish Israelis exercise their right daily to disagree with the Chief Rabbia and no Israel does not have Rabbinical agents running around insisting people be kosher using the state to impose that diet.

The kibbutz I worked on and lived on, the political party I was a member of, the lifestyle I lived in Israel was not religious. I was taught as a Zionist to respect all religions but I myself never was orthodox or even conservative Jewish. I stayed out of certain neighbours where ultra orthodox Jews lived the same reason I stayed out of orthodox Muslim areas or orthodox Christian areas.

If Israel was about imposing state religion like Sharia law nations do, how do people think Bahaiis could exist and choose Haifa as their world headquarters. Bahaiis are respected in Israel. They are openly welcomed and good citizens. Israel does not kill and jail them as they do in Iran.

The laws of Israel guarantee that any Jew,Muslim, Christian, Druze, Bahaii, atheist, have their rights to their beliefs and the superceding state of Israel laws guarantee this. Thus if you are an orthodox Jew or orthodox Muslim or Othodox Christian you can go to religious courts for certain legal determinations to recognize your religious rights UNLIKE in Sharia law states where Jews and Christians do not have this right.

If Israel was about imposing Judaism the religion on all people, it would not have separate religious courts and a Supreme Court that has implemented rulings and decisions protecting non Jewish religious sites and rights.

Most Israelis do not follow Judaism as a religion. They identify themselves existentially as Jews and their belief in God if they have one is complex and no you cannot stereotype it as the same.

No Israeli would stand for the state telling them how to pray. Go try it and see what would happen.

What an absurd thing to even suggest. Every day in the Knesset Israel's citizens openly debate the attempts by some of its citizens to turn Israel into a RELIGIOUS state.

Dre and Jacee and the rest of the Israeli experts on this board who think they no about Zionism,Judaism,, homosexuality, etc., really need to first read up to understand how Zionism seperates religion from state and when it defines Jew its not defining Judaism, but the people and their collective political rights.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Rue

[Rue]

Ghost Hacked your comment that Jews survived by being manipulative and coercive is exactly what is expected of you, a negative anti-Semitic stereotype spewed out on the forum using the pretext of discussing Israel as a state to spew it.

You provide a shining example of what anti-Semitism is and how its couched on the forum using Israel as the pretext to spew it.

Your comment is a negative subjective statement that does nothing but incite hatred to Jews. I am glad it is there for all to see and you can defend it all you want. It speaks for itself.

[Rue]

PeterF you misstated what I said.

I did not state what you did.

I will however state this so you can understand my position-to me and many Zionists like me, we do not define our Jewish identity as simply meaning following the Jewish religion.

We define ourselves in existential terms, as a collective of people, who have survived because we realize the collective is the best means to assure our continued survival.

We believe the collective is our best means of survival because we live in a world full of people like Ghost who spew negative stereotypes about us that have nothing to do with religion..go on read what he said back...you heard him, we survived because we are manipulative and coercive.

That is the kind of bullshit stereotype Jews as a people have been subject to since Christianity and Islam came about.

Zionism is an existential reaction to persecution. Our persecution comes from negative stereotypes of us being dishonest and less than human. That started with religious doctrine but it mutated into political doctrine.

Zionism never attempted nor did it claim to address religion. It simply addressed the political state of Jews.

It is true today, there are a minority of vocal Zionists who mix their views of Judaism with Zionism and we can find them on the West Bank and in some extremist parties and political movements. The difference though is Israel outlawed the Kache Party and Israel will arrest Jews who use their religion to preach hatred and justify terrorism no differently than they will Muslims. I

Zionism is not about forcing religion on people. Zionism is a state that protects the state right of Jews to assure they will never again be a persecuted by the state. However while it protects Jews as a refuge for their existence in a hostile world, it recognizes the religious and political rights of its non Jewish citizens.

Israel is not a perfect state. It has major problems.

One poster came on this board and engaged in the representation that Muslim schools get less government funding that Jewish schools. They presented it as if it was proof that the state discriminates. What that poster of course would not say is that Muslim Israelis will not pay taxes as Jews will, so with less taxes from them, the taxes can not be spent on schools and because Israel is tolerant of Muslims it won't force them to pay taxes.

Muslim Israelis it is true have issues at a municipal government level that come from lack of municipal revenues from taxes to build roads and schools.

Israel depends on municipal taxes to pay that and if Muslim Israelis won't pay those taxes those areas suffer.

Muslim Israelis don't pay taxes not because they are persecuted, but because in their culture, paying tax is something they have been avoiding for thousands of years.

Cultural not just religion clash as Western government values and Eastern cultural practices collide.

That same lack of funding also happens in Arab Jewish communities for the same reason but of course the poster would not want to say that.

Israel has discrimination of course but its not between Muslim and Jew, its between Jew and Jew, Muslim and Muslim and Muslim and Jew.

Its based on cultural differences. Jews are not one uniform block. Jews come from every part of the world, have every shade of skin,are influenced bu the cultures of where they came from. Russian Jews, Arab Mizrahi Jews, Felashie Jews, Argentinian Jews, of course they are different

Arab Jews feel closer to Muslim Jews than say Russian Jews in terms of art, food, music.

Now you want to know my personal beliefs on religion? Don't misstate them, ask.

Me personally I am not religious. No. Not in the conventional sense. Am I spiritual yes.

Zionism is not about having me preach and impose my religion. It ever was. It is about accepting my ancestry and who I am linked to-a people who suffered but lived so that their ancestors, people like me could enjoy the life I have today.

My JewishZionist identity is based on mutual respect of Christians and Muslims not hatred. The Muslims and Christians I embrace treat me as I would treat them. As a Zionist I was taught to live with and understand the ways of Beduins and to respect them as much as I do my own ancestry..to learn about the Druze, the Berbers, the Kurds, the Zoroastreans, Coptics, Assyrians, on and on. I learned very quickly that Arabic was spoken with different accents and those regional accents meant much and there was much division between Arab peoples based on those accents just as each and every region had its own version of Islam or Christianity.

I am most comfortable using Taoist principles to simplify life as a momentary here and now gift and the gift is free choice and thought each one of us chose to come into this life to exercise. I embrace that simplicity because in the ancient world of the Middle East there is a lot of distracting noise-there is a lot of baggage or emotional blockage piled up from thousands of years of competing voices trying to control.

Zionism to me is a bitter pill. It comes about from tragedy not joy. In an ideal world it would not have to have come about.

I detest any religion used to justify war, hatred, intolerance.

Do I think religions are nonsense? No I think people using religion, might make them nonsensical.

People can take the very same words and use them as a weapon to kill or an agent to express love.

I take each person and how they use those words in the moment.

Point the words at me as a weapon, I will defend. Use the words to make me smile, I will.

Zionists do both.We tend to defend a lot with people who use their religions as weapons but we also smile. You'd be surprised.

Arabs and Jews can make each other smile. We can both can look at each other and smile over camels or donkeys or tourists with no hats on in the noon day sun.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Rue

[marcus]

We have lots of space in North America. Why not give parts of Saskatchewan and Manitoba and NWT to the Jews to build their own country. Of course, not at the expense of others who live there. Then we can give Palestinians their land back and the Palestinians who were driven out can also go back. All this empty land and they had to choose Palestine. There was also Uganda and Argentina, which I think would have been a better option than Palestine.

What do you think Rue?