Ontario Teachers Potential Strike

socialist · December 9, 2014

No, I don't. Your self-interested and self-serving testimonials don't change anything. I've no doubt there are "many" teachers working on their Masters, but this amounts to a tiny fraction of the overall teaching population. Your pay increases based pimarily on seniority so most teachers don't bother. The sad part is that probably the best trained, most engaged and most enthusiastic teachers are the newer ones who are getting paid the least.

It's pretty simple logic. Being a teacher yourself with an obvious bias, your testimonials are worth less than nothing. I can look up what the requirements are to become a teacher, what a teacher gets paid and what uninterested third parties say about teacher compensation in Canada (as in the OECD saying Canada's teachers are among the best-paid in the world and paid at least 5% more than similarly-educated non-teaching professions despite working FAR less hours overall). Also, for every self-serving testimonial you offer, I can get the opposite from close friends in the teaching profession who laugh about how easy it is and about what they do in the summer.

You always manage to give me a good chuckle. A masters degree bumps a teacher on the pay scale resulting in a much deserved pay increase.

You have one friend in the teaching profession who got in it for the summer holidays? Becoming a teacher takes a minimum of 5 years of hard work. We are also life long learners, always working to improve our classes for our learners. You obviously have very little knowledge of teachers or the public school system. You have a hate on for teachers and it shows.

WestCoastRunner · December 9, 2014

Sure, that's understood. Not everyone plans a pregnancy either. Everyone should be able to afford private daycare, so if they need subsidies/tax credits or whatever to be able to then that's fine. The nice part about subsidies like that is that they could actually encourage a parent to stay home and give their 3-4 year old the attention he/she really needs rather than get a McJob that barely nets positive for them after paying for daycare.

You may not get this, but some parents are better off at work, contributing to society and letting a daycare provide for their children. Not every parent enjoys staying home, baking cookies, taking kids to lessons, however they still want to have children. That doesn't mean they are bad parents, it just means they are perhaps better parents when the children are beyond the 5 year old range. This is probably hard for many people to grasp. I get that.

Moonbox · December 9, 2014

You always manage to give me a good chuckle. A masters degree bumps a teacher on the pay scale resulting in a much deserved pay increase.

but still the majority of teachers don't have one.

You have one friend in the teaching profession who got in it for the summer holidays?

No, numerous friends with permanent contracts. Testimonials for online arguments are really solid right?

Becoming a teacher takes a minimum of 5 years of hard work. We are also life long learners, always working to improve our classes for our learners. You obviously have very little knowledge of teachers or the public school system. You have a hate on for teachers and it shows.

Becoming a teacher takes the same 4 years of hard work getting an undergraduate degree does. The 1 year of teacher's college on top of that is a complete joke that's virtually impossible to fail. As for being life long learners, so are the majority of people. I don't have a hate on for teachers. Probably 1/4 of my friends are teachers. I simply have zero respect or patience for whining from unionized public sector servants who, by virtually all objective measures, are already paid better than they should be.

Moonbox · December 9, 2014

You may not get this, but some parents are better off at work, contributing to society and letting a daycare provide for their children. Not every parent enjoys staying home, baking cookies, taking kids to lessons, however they still want to have children.

I guess you missed all the times I suggested we should be providing subsidies for families with too young for school so they can be sent to daycare. I like this solution better than full-day kindergarten (or even pre-kindergarten) because it also makes it easier for one parents to stay home if they so chose.

Michael Hardner · December 9, 2014

What exactly do you need a cite for? Are you just trying to play for the few fans?

You were asked for several. Including the 'big push' for Masters degrees you mentioned.

Michael Hardner · December 9, 2014

That's ironic considering your posts related to the Furgeson protests.

Let's keep the discussion on this thread, not others ok ?

Smallc · December 9, 2014

Let's keep the discussion on this thread, not others ok ?

Sometimes that requires context. I'll also point out that the post I was responding to was completely off topic.

Smallc · December 9, 2014

Sometimes that requires context. I'll also point out that the post I was responding to was completely off topic.

Sorry I'm just not having a good day. You're right Michael, and I apologize.

socialist · December 10, 2014

but still the majority of teachers don't have one.

No, numerous friends with permanent contracts. Testimonials for online arguments are really solid right?

Becoming a teacher takes the same 4 years of hard work getting an undergraduate degree does. The 1 year of teacher's college on top of that is a complete joke that's virtually impossible to fail. As for being life long learners, so are the majority of people. I don't have a hate on for teachers. Probably 1/4 of my friends are teachers. I simply have zero respect or patience for whining from unionized public sector servants who, by virtually all objective measures, are already paid better than they should be.

I was right. You said 1/4 of your friends are teachers, thus you have one friend who is a teacher. Too bad your teacher friend is not representative of 99% of teachers. You continue to prove you lack a strong understanding of the teaching profession, like many other "so-called" experts. too many people think that because they once went to school it somehow makes them an expert. You need to be trained properly to teach learners in today's fast paced world. maybe you simply don't understand.

Moonbox · December 10, 2014

Too bad your teacher friend is not representative of 99% of teachers.

No, you're right. They're probably a lot smarter and more engaged than the majority. They also also spend far less time crying over the sweet deal they have and are overall just better human beings than most teachers.

You continue to prove you lack a strong understanding of the teaching profession, like many other "so-called" experts.

No, you simply don't like what I have to say. You're a teacher and rather than speaking facts and numbers (you've been asked several times for cites/references which you've refused to provide), you're peddling lame and self-serving testimonials about how you deserve so much more.

too many people think that because they once went to school it somehow makes them an expert. You need to be trained properly to teach learners in today's fast paced world. maybe you simply don't understand.

Except the training you receive is mostly a joke. I know you like to think you went through an intensive/grueling training program among the intellectual elite, but that's a delusional conceit you hold only because you're a teacher. The fact is that Teacher's College is easy to get into, even easier to complete and it only takes a year to do so!

Edited December 10, 2014 by Moonbox

guyser · December 10, 2014

The fact is that Teacher's College is easy to get into, even easier to complete and it only takes a year to do so!

Not any more as a matter of fact. A good thing.

Moonbox · December 10, 2014

Not any more as a matter of fact. A good thing.

Yes, at least in Ontario. They're accepting significantly fewer students and requiring them to complete a two year program at Teacher's College. This is long overdue, but says nothing about existing and (especially) older teachers.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Moonbox

socialist · December 11, 2014

No, you're right. They're probably a lot smarter and more engaged than the majority. They also also spend far less time crying over the sweet deal they have and are overall just better human beings than most teachers.

No, you simply don't like what I have to say. You're a teacher and rather than speaking facts and numbers (you've been asked several times for cites/references which you've refused to provide), you're peddling lame and self-serving testimonials about how you deserve so much more.

Except the training you receive is mostly a joke. I know you like to think you went through an intensive/grueling training program among the intellectual elite, but that's a delusional conceit you hold only because you're a teacher. The fact is that Teacher's College is easy to get into, even easier to complete and it only takes a year to do so!

So you are judging an education degree on what some slacker friend of yours says? That's hilarious!

socialist · December 11, 2014

Yes, at least in Ontario. They're accepting significantly fewer students and requiring them to complete a two year program at Teacher's College. This is long overdue, but says nothing about existing and (especially) older teachers.

Oh, and by the way, we aren't teachers any more, we are educators. At least get the terminology correct before even attempting to have a debate.

The_Squid · December 11, 2014

Oh, and by the way, we aren't teachers any more, we are educators. At least get the terminology correct before even attempting to have a debate.

Here is your last status update:

Some people think teachers with masters degrees shouldn't be paid more. Ridiculous!

Updated 08 Dec · 8 comments

So did you just come up with this new terminology today?

Talk about hypocritical.

Edited December 11, 2014 by The_Squid

WestCoastRunner · December 11, 2014

Except the training you receive is mostly a joke. I know you like to think you went through an intensive/grueling training program among the intellectual elite, but that's a delusional conceit you hold only because you're a teacher. The fact is that Teacher's College is easy to get into, even easier to complete and it only takes a year to do so!

The fact is that obtaining work as a full-time teacher is just as difficult as obtaining work in any other professional position. Applicants to a teacher's college are competing against thousands of other potential students. The more volunteer work, the more courses they have previously taken, the more certificates etc all help them to get accepted. Many folks on this forum make it sound like it's so easy to get accepted and become a full-time teacher. It is not that easy and in the end, the teachers that do obtain full-time teaching positions are very well qualified to teach.

Moonbox · December 11, 2014

So you are judging an education degree on what some slacker friend of yours says? That's hilarious!

I'm judging it based on how easy it is/was to become certified as a teacher (even for a slacker!), how exceptionally well teachers are paid and how much of the year they don't work. All of these things are facts which can be easily verified and have been throughout this thread. Your flimsy attempts to refute them have been literally nothing but moronic self-serving testimonials about how wonderful/smart/hard-working you and your friends are.

Oh, and by the way, we aren't teachers any more, we are educators. At least get the terminology correct before even attempting to have a debate.

Whether or not we call you teachers or educators is completely irrelevant to the point anyone is trying to make. We could call you "People who are paid by the government to impart learning on students" and none of the arguments get any weaker or stronger as a result. You're not doing any favors to your profession with this sort of flimsy reasoning. Combine that with your incompetent hypocrisy (you've been using the term 'teacher' all along, genius) and you're only reinforcing people's negative perception of your profession.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Moonbox

Moonbox · December 11, 2014

The fact is that obtaining work as a full-time teacher is just as difficult as obtaining work in any other professional position.

Except it pays way better and you work way less. 3 months of holidays a year is a sweet ride.

WestCoastRunner · December 11, 2014

Except it pays way better and you work way less. 3 months of holidays a year is a sweet ride.

Plenty of professions offer well paid salaries (same as teachers). Have a look at engineers, IT, etc. They all require the same amount of post secondary education. You should take a look at benefit packages for some of these other professions. They are pretty sweet.

WestCoastRunner · December 11, 2014

Except it pays way better and you work way less. 3 months of holidays a year is a sweet ride.

You are just looking to attack teachers. I'm just not sure why the vendetta.

Moonbox · December 11, 2014

Plenty of professions offer well paid salaries (same as teachers). Have a look at engineers, IT, etc. They all require the same amount of post secondary education. You should take a look at benefit packages for some of these other professions. They are pretty sweet.

Engineers don't get three months of vacation, 6-7 hour work days or unbeatable job security with vague/fluffy job performance standards.

You are just looking to attack teachers. I'm just not sure why the vendetta.

It's not about attacking teachers, or the profession itself. It's about ridiculing their hilarious complaints and sense of entitlement when they have it as good as they do (by all objective measures).

Edited December 11, 2014 by Moonbox

WestCoastRunner · December 11, 2014

Engineers don't get three months of vacation, 6-7 hour work days or unbeatable job security with vague/fluffy job performance standards.

It's not about attacking teachers, or the profession itself. It's about ridiculing their hilarious complaints and sense of entitlement when they have it as good as they do (by all objective measures).

You didn't address this:

gaining entrance to a teachers college and the requirements to obtain a full time teaching job.

Let's face it. You don't like teachers or the profession.

Michael Hardner · December 11, 2014

Engineers don't get three months of vacation, 6-7 hour work days or unbeatable job security with vague/fluffy job performance standards.

That has already been debunked on this thread. Teachers' work weeks are longer, and require extra work on week nights and weekends, especially in the first few years.

It's not about attacking teachers, or the profession itself. It's about ridiculing their hilarious complaints and sense of entitlement when they have it as good as they do (by all objective measures).

There is no such thing as objective measures when it comes to such things. It's always personal, and few people think that their profession gets enough respect/attention/money etc.

And everybody complains.

Michael Hardner · December 11, 2014

Plenty of professions offer well paid salaries (same as teachers). Have a look at engineers, IT, etc. They all require the same amount of post secondary education. You should take a look at benefit packages for some of these other professions. They are pretty sweet.

This is correct, however there are specific benefits and costs to teaching that are different than these other professions. These aspects of the job come to mind, anecdotal and observationally:

Some Costs:

- Having to speak and be on your feet in front of students all day requires a lot of energy

- Night work/weekend work

- Very hard to get started in the profession

- Frustrating bureaucracy and management

- Complacency of teachers/staff

- Heartbreaking student stories are in front of you every day

- Lack of mobility

- Lack of flexibility of hours/vacation

Some Benefits:

- Excellent job security in the profession

- Good salary

- Salary increases are built in to contracts

- Job requires intelligence and creativity

- Having a job that makes a direct different in peoples' lives

Moonbox · December 11, 2014

That has already been debunked on this thread. Teachers' work weeks are longer, and require extra work on week nights and weekends, especially in the first few years.

It hasn't been debunked at all. A teacher's work week is only "longer" because they're not at the "office" for 8-9 hours a day like everyone else. They end up doing some marking on the weekends but it doesn't amount to the 15+ hours a week most of them like to tell us. While some of the newer and younger teachers are actually that dedicated, they're the exception, not the norm.

As for the rest (job security, superb pay/benefits, 3-months holiday etc), that's undeniable fact.

There is no such thing as objective measures when it comes to such things. It's always personal, and few people think that their profession gets enough respect/attention/money etc.

And everybody complains.

Sure, but measures like pay and benefits are easy to objectively measure, and by all objective measurements the teachers have it pretty good. This isn't just me saying this. These are the conclusions of economists, university econ profs, the OECD etc...