Canadian companies overseas

[Argus]

That's not true. Keep in mind that these agreements have to work both ways, so to ensure fair rules for Canadian companies operating in China we have to provide something for Chinese companies operating in Canada. Read this:

http://wcel.org/resources/environmental-law-alert/canada-china-free-trade-agreement-not-end-environmental-law

You cannot have an agreement of this type between a democratic state with a free judiciary, and a dictatorship. It's not workable. Period. Chinese companies will be able to use the Canadian courts to get their way, for Canadian courts will base decision on the agreement on law. Chinese courts will do whatever their government tells them to do. Canadian companies would have to get Ottawa to appeal to an international panel - after the Chinese courts, after much long delay, refuse them, then the Chinese will delay an international tribunal hearing as long as possible, then appeal the decision if they don't like it. By the time any final decision is handed down many years will have passed, and then the Chinese will make noises like they respect it but fail to carry out the requirements. In the meantime, the company involved which dares to make noise will have been shut out of anything in China which requires government agreement, licenses, cooperation, etc. Which basically means anything. So such companies will largely remain silent. The Chinese government signs international agreements all the time and then blatantly ignores them.

[Michael Hardner]

You cannot have an agreement of this type between a democratic state with a free judiciary, and a dictatorship.

The opinion I posted doesn't agree. Read the last paragraph.

The rest of your post seems like a worst-case scenario. I agree that trade agreements won't work if that's what happens.

[Argus]

The opinion I posted doesn't agree. Read the last paragraph.

The rest of your post seems like a worst-case scenario. I agree that trade agreements won't work if that's what happens.

But that opinion was talking about remedies within Canada by extra governmental agencies to combat potential Chinese abuse of the environment here. The point I'm making is that Canadian organizations in China will, in reality, have no protection under this agreement. We are offering Chinese government owned companies extraordinary protection here in exchange for nothing.

[Michael Hardner]

The point I'm making is that Canadian organizations in China will, in reality, have no protection under this agreement.

Do you have a link explaining that ? I provided an analysis by an organization that has problems with FIPPA but still is able to provide a balanced perspective, so a similar informative link will be appreciated.

[Argus]

Do you have a link explaining that ? I provided an analysis by an organization that has problems with FIPPA but still is able to provide a balanced perspective, so a similar informative link will be appreciated.

Uhm, no, you didn't. Your cite was for an environmentalist group which had NOTHING good to say about the agreement nor ANYTHING to say about its purpose. It merely said that it wasn't time to panic with regard to the possibility of China using the agreement to abrogate environmental law.

I am speaking instead of the fact that anyone who expects Chinese courts to enforce this agreement on the Chinese government on behalf of Canadian companies is living in a deluded fools paradise. I don't need a cite to back that up. China's history is clear, and its courts are staffed with party men who do what they're told.

[Michael Hardner]

Uhm, no, you didn't. Your cite was for an environmentalist group which had NOTHING good to say about the agreement nor ANYTHING to say about its purpose. It merely said that it wasn't time to panic with regard to the possibility of China using the agreement to abrogate environmental law.

And juxtaposed against your post, it still provides information and understanding of a deal that is going to happen regardless, rather than your "you cannot have an agreement like this" position.

I am speaking instead of the fact that anyone who expects Chinese courts to enforce this agreement on the Chinese government on behalf of Canadian companies is living in a deluded fools paradise. I don't need a cite to back that up. China's history is clear, and its courts are staffed with party men who do what they're told.

I would like a link. You're saying basically that Stephen Harper is a fool, and I don't agree.

[eyeball]

Drivel. Okay, pass your laws. Oh, gee, I think I'll move my mining company headquarters to Columbia. Now you can stick your laws.

You must have missed where I said we should arrest Canadian shareholders of these companies. A corporation is just a thing and it's the human beings directing them that matter.

We should also start electing politicians that aim to create international agreements and laws that put a stop to the shell games that allow people to move accountability around the world.

[eyeball]

As it should be. That said, it's difficult given the way you have to operate in other countries. Still, it wasn't only bribes that you were talking about. It's not Canada's job to police the lack of proper regulation in other countries.

If the only way you can operate in other countries is to abandon the principles you are required to operate by at home then you shouldn't be allowed to operate there.

Somebody on this stupid planet has to start taking a stand against the rising tide of shit and corruption that's washing over it. Why not Canada?

[Argus]

You must have missed where I said we should arrest Canadian shareholders of these companies. A corporation is just a thing and it's the human beings directing them that matter.

I am a shareholder of dozens of companies, but I have zero say in who is in charge or what they do, nor any knowledge of the laws they might or might not be abrogating.

I don't happen to own any shares in mining companies at the moment but have held gold and silver mining shares in the past, and could conceivably in the future. I don't think it would be fair to arrest me for what a company might be doing without my knowledge.

[Argus]

I would like a link. You're saying basically that Stephen Harper is a fool, and I don't agree.

What kind of a link would you like? One that demonstrate China is a dictatorship? One which speaks to the lack of independence of the court system? Do you have some doubt in that regard?

I have no idea why Harper is pushing for this, to be honest. His expressed statements make little sense. I suppose he might think that this might gain us more exports to China, since anything and everything done by Chinese companies, including what they import and sell, is completely reliant on what the government wants them to do.

[eyeball]

I am a shareholder of dozens of companies, but I have zero say in who is in charge or what they do, nor any knowledge of the laws they might or might not be abrogating.

I don't happen to own any shares in mining companies at the moment but have held gold and silver mining shares in the past, and could conceivably in the future. I don't think it would be fair to arrest me for what a company might be doing without my knowledge.

I don't buy the argument that ignorance is an excuse, not when lives are at stake. You're responsible for ensuring and maintaining proper oversight.

[Argus]

I don't buy the argument that ignorance is an excuse, not when lives are at stake. You're responsible for ensuring and maintaining proper oversight.

I have no power to do so, any more than you have to restrain the Canadian government from doing something you don't like.

[eyeball]

I have no power to do so, any more than you have to restrain the Canadian government from doing something you don't like.

Restraining people, corporations or governments from doing things that are wrong, which can include inaction, is quite different than just preventing them from doing something you disagree with.

Obviously we need to increase our power and ability to restrain the institutions that represent our interests here and abroad.

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

Not analogous situations. Your children can't be spanked or grounded by other parents.

Other countries, on the other hand, are perfectly capable of disciplining these companies in any way they choose.

So your fine with Canadian companies bribing officials in foreign countries to get what they want then? Hiring local people and paying them next to nothing to work in dirty, dangerous conditions then? Your fine with Canadian companies dumping poisons and pollutants into the local air and water then?

These companies represent Canada when they do business abroad, they should have the decency to operate the way they are required to operate in their home country.

Why is it when you go to work every day you expect to work in a safe, clean environment for decent income but when the company you work for has divisions in other countries they are free to operate as they please? Is it the extra money they save goes toward your raise? It's not in your backyard so it doesn't matter? What happens when they decide your location is not operating competitively and they decide to shut it down and move it to one of these countries?

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

If the only way you can operate in other countries is to abandon the principles you are required to operate by at home then you shouldn't be allowed to operate there.

Somebody on this stupid planet has to start taking a stand against the rising tide of shit and corruption that's washing over it. Why not Canada?

Your absolutely right, if Canada is so good, let's prove it. It's time this country developed a backbone and set some examples.

[Moonbox]

I don't buy the argument that ignorance is an excuse, not when lives are at stake. You're responsible for ensuring and maintaining proper oversight.

You've obviously never owned a share of stock in your life, nor do you know anything about investing. Suggesting that the average individual should or even can oversee his (hopefully) widely diversified holdings is about as reasonable as suggesting that when you have friends over for a BBQ, you've ensured you have a detailed break down of where your burgers came from, what the cow's name was, every person who handled it from farm to kill floor to grocery store and that you've had them all tested for ecoli and examined them for glass shards.

Nobody's ever called you reasonable though.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Moonbox

[eyeball]

You've obviously never worked at a job where the public's interest in a natural resource is rigorously protected by the government.

The sort of food traceability you're talking about happens all the time. I don't name the fish I kill but I do attach a zap-strap to it that contains information that stays with the fish all the way to the consumer. Dig even deeper into the data and you'll find the co-ordinates, time and date of where the fish was caught and there's even a chance the video image of me catching it still exists.

And just so you know, the cost of my oversight comes off the top before I'm paid. How reasonable is that?

Edited November 24, 2014 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

...And just so you know, the cost of my oversight comes off the top before I'm paid. How reasonable is that?

Very reasonable it seems to me...they aren't your fish to begin with.

[On Guard for Thee]

Actually, what I'm saying is that the Chinese have no place making our laws, just as we have no place making theirs. The environment is of the world, but it's a world we don't own or control. The law has to exist within countries.

It is the only world we have, at least as far as I know. The environment ignores boundaries. I find it a bit weird to be having to extoll such an obvious conclusion once again.

[eyeball]

Very reasonable it seems to me...they aren't your fish to begin with.

That's right, they become mine once I've caught them. That still doesn't eliminate or negate my requirement to be accountable and participate in their tracability.

[jacee]

So your fine with Canadian companies bribing officials in foreign countries to get what they want then? Hiring local people and paying them next to nothing to work in dirty, dangerous conditions then? Your fine with Canadian companies dumping poisons and pollutants into the local air and water then?

These companies represent Canada when they do business abroad, they should have the decency to operate the way they are required to operate in their home country.

I think one of the problems is that Canadian mining companies have operated irresponsibly here too, often in remote areas where First Nations communities were affected but powerless to do anything.

/lakes-across-canada-face-being-turned-into-mine-dump-sites-

In northern B.C., Imperial Metals plans to enclose a remote watershed valley to hold tailings from a gold and copper mine. The valley lies in what the native Tahltan people call the "Sacred Headwaters" of three major salmon rivers. It also serves as spawning grounds for the rainbow trout of Kluela Lake, which is downstream from the dump site.

Indigenous Peoples worldwide are often affected by mining projects.

The UN Declaration on Rights of Indigenous Peoples now calls for "free prior and informed consent" for activities on their land, a rallying point for worldwide protests of the community destruction by mining and other industries.

In Canada, the legal requirement for consultation and accommodation of Aboriginal rights now addresses these issues, but it's every bit as much of a struggle here as overseas.

.

Edited November 24, 2014 by jacee

[jacee]

FN powerless? Yeah ok jacee. They blockade everything at the drop of a hat but were somehow powerless in this situation. Sorry I don't buy it. The FN are the biggest bunch of babies ever. They cry foul and take over housing developments, block rail lines, roads etc because they know the government will just pat them o nthe head and give them whatever they want. Powerless....lol....that's a good one.

It's improving, but lots of First Nations still suffer from health impacts of industrial contamination.

Mining companies bring jobs and pump lots of money into the economy. If we stopped everything that was unfavorable to the environment Canada would be bankrupt. We'd have not enough to fund all of your social programs you're so fond of. Please, before you plan to blow up Canada's economy look at the big picture.

Black and white thinking ... either/or ... get creative ... let's hold them responsible for environmental and social impacts. They'll whine ... and then figure out how to make a profit anyway.

.

Edited November 24, 2014 by jacee

[jacee]

The environment must be protected yes. Reasonable measures should be in place to ensure that companies aren't polluting like crazy I hate the damage that the oilsands does and what mining does but it's a necessary evil unfortunately. We need these industries atm. It generates Billions of dollars in revenue not to mention almost countless jobs directly and indirectly.

They will do as much damage as we will let them get away with. If we hold them accountable for the damage, they'll whine and bitch a lot ... then figure out how to make a profit anyway.

"Only when the last tree has died, and the last river has been poisoned, and the last fish has been caught, will we realize that

we cannot eat money."

- American Indian proverb

This looks promising:

/transforming-toxic-mine-tailings ... into gold!

Recovering precious metals from mine tailings funds the construction and operation of the bioleaching plant, and returns a tidy profit as long as the price of gold continues current high value. Governments and municipalities are eager to talk to BacTech about processing tailings at old mining operations, especially since the company charges no fee for their environmental remediation efforts.

And it's only when we hold them accountable for the damage that such technologies and solutions are developed.

If we just throw up our hands and say

"What can we do?! We need the money!"

... then nothing will ever change.

Edited November 24, 2014 by jacee

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

"CANADA... ONE OF THE BEST COUNTRIES ON EARTH TO LIVE THROUGH LOWERING STANDARDS AROUND THE WORLD!!!"

We should be so proud...

Jaycee is right, and there are thousands of examples. Take temporary foreign workers for example, companies bring people from poor foreign countries, cram them into houses they have bought and charge them 10x the rent they could charge locals while paying them less then local help. This was running rampant until someone brought it to the media's attention. It's interesting because when companies bring in temps to replace workers on sick leave etc. they have to pay a premium while they can pay less for temps from outside the country. They should be required to pay them ten percent over what they would pay locals.

Companies also don't care about shareholders unless they are majority, board members or the CEO, yes you have a chance to make a few percent when things are good and you are a lucky investor but have they ever payed you back when things went south? I bet the board members still got their raises...

The heads of companies will do whatever they can get away with to increase their income whether it be finding loopholes, bending or breaking laws or rules, bribery, turning streams, lakes, rivers, oceans and the sky into tailings ponds, slave labor, dangerous conditions, anything.

This should be taught to children in schools, it would be interesting to see how they react. Let's tell them mining must be kept within Canada's rules while within our borders but has free reign outside, the people and the environment don't matter "over there" that's what charities are for, as long as they can maintain their runaway profits it doesn't matter how they do it outside our borders. Don't forget to throw some numbers and pictures at them, they should be thankful they live here etc.

[Moonbox]

The sort of food traceability you're talking about happens all the time. I don't name the fish I kill but I do attach a zap-strap to it that contains information that stays with the fish all the way to the consumer. Dig even deeper into the data and you'll find the co-ordinates, time and date of where the fish was caught and there's even a chance the video image of me catching it still exists.

and if I bought some fish to serve at a party from the grocery store, how would you suggest that I go about getting this information? Could I just scan the bar-code at home and get a picture of you smiling with your catch? Would I get a timeline of everywhere the fish has been and every single person that's handled it? Would I get lab-test results showing that it's not contaminated and x-ray images showing there are no razor blades inside?