marcus Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 (edited) I guess in your view collateral damage committed by the IDF is worse than a massacre of Jews by others? Rich. That's not my view and that's not the context. I guess in your view, killing children is okay if they are Palestinian. Edited November 20, 2014 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
marcus Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 (edited) You're making excuses for those that fire missiles into Israel in a carpet bombing strategy What? There was no carpet bombing of missiles into Israel. Do you even know what you're talking about? Also, 1500 civilians who were killed by Israel did not shoot any rockets into Israel. In Israel, only Jewish blood shocks anyone Killings of Palestinians by soldiers and policemen will never shock Israel. The propaganda machine will whitewash everything, and the media will be its mouthpiece. Link Edited November 20, 2014 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Rue Posted November 20, 2014 Author Report Posted November 20, 2014 (edited) Bonam your point is well explained. I think the simple point though was that people kill in the name of many things. Often its the name of "God" often its not. Its interesting because when we see discussions on the Middle East some of us like me or-1 or Shark orJBG will say to understand that conflict one must go backwords to understand the origins of the religions of the area and how they have led to entrenched political beliefs that prevail to this day, the classic case being Sharia law. Its hard to discuss Hamas, ISIL, Al Quaeda, and the position of Mr. Abbas on Israel and for that matter the refusal of the Arab League of Nations and all terrorist groups to ever recognize Israel as a Jewish state without understanding that this refusal comes from Sharia law and the belief that non Jews are not equal to Muslims and thus can be dhimmi but can never own land or a state or have equal rights to a Muslim. When one reads the charter of the Palestinian Authority it calls for a Sharia law nation in Palestine and when you then listen to the PA's leaders when speaking to the Muslim world they include all of Jordan and Isael in that sharia law nation and yet Abbas is referred to as a moderate. In the case of Hamas its constitution directly refers to creating a world wide Muslim caliphate with Gaza, Israel,Jordan, the West Bank all just part of it. It makes direct quotes from the Koran to urge on the killing of Jews world wide in a religious war. The Muslim Brotherhood which created ISIS, Hamas, Al Quaeda, and is directly funding numerous Sunni Muslim extremist groups makes it clear in their manifesto they want a world wide caliphate based on the Koran and President Obama has welcomed them to the White House, called htem visionaries, and embraced Morsi and Erdogan as they openly stated their allegiance to the Muslim Brotherhood. Obama and Erdogan created and financed ISIS to rid Libya of Ghaddafi and Assad in Syria. They trained them in Jordan and Turkey and when they broke off from both and murdered the US Ambassador in Libya for being a homosexual, then turned roque in Iraq as Obama's designated Shiite puppet in Iraq began slaughtering Sunnis, this was all deeply related to an Islamic religious civil war that has gone on between Shiite and Sunni for thousands of years. Obama was not prepared to listen to Egypt, Israel, Germany when their intelligence reports repeatedly warned him to stay out of the Sunni-Shiite conflict and not arm either side. Obama who in 2008 ran on a political campaign stating Hamas was a terrorist organization and should not be recognized by the world until it recognizes a Jewish state and disarms and stands down from its vow to continue a world wide war to create a Muslim caliphate, now has done a 360 and openly supports Hamas and has lectured Israel continuously it must negotiate with them and not expect either the PA or Hamas to ever recognize a Jewish state, disarm, or disavow their Muslim belief that there can be no Jewish state. Is is a surprise? He has over 8 Muslim Brotherhood supporters advising him, and his two major advisors on the Middle East Zbigniew Brezinski and Samantha Power have stated he US can and should form alliances with Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran. Iran and Hezbollah which the US now openly courts to break ISIS is interestingly is a dead enemy of the Muslim Brotherhood. So are the Kurds who Obama now asks the Turks the strongest ally of the Muslim Brotherhood to take in to fight ISIS. On top of all that we have the spectacle of the State Department leaking stories that Hezbollah can be trusted as an ally,Netanyahu is a chicken shit for not negotiating with Hamas who have openly stated they will never deal with Israel and the best is yet to come. Both the UAE and Saudi Arabia in the last two weeks openly have stated to Obama that the Muslim Brotherhood is as much an enemy to them as is Iran and Hezbollah. What is clearly happening is the schism between Sunni and Shiite was misread by Erdogan and Obama who thought they could create a Musim Brotherhood alliance with Egypt, Sudan and Libya to lead the Sunni world. Saudi Arabia and its monarch allies have stated to Obama in no uncertain terms, he's an idiot to think they want anything to do with the Muslim Brotherhood who are dedicated to removing their monarchies just as much as they are in war against the Shiites. Obama has blown open a schism misreading the religious values behind the tensions. He does not understand there are two Sunni political movements, One extremist led by the Muslim Brotherhood which is a blend of socialism and Islam and sees one caliphate run by a religious council for the entire world, conservative Sunni monarchies and military regimes in the other that want no religious councils, and the Shiites driven by two principle elements, the Hezbollah, a self regulated terror unit and Iran which has two cells one the Iron Guard run by the government in power with its views, the other the actual Muslim clergy council that runs Iran that does not necessarily have control of it. Obama embraces chaos and refuses to listen to the warnings of his former allies Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia and now the UAE. The Muslim religion he was brought up on in Indonesia is a very rigid sect called Sabu. It was particular to Indonesia but he took what he learned there and had it influence his beliefs that Muslims outside Indonesia in Kenya where his half brother and father are Muslims and from had similiarities to what his step father in Indonesia taught him. He is trying to mix two totally different approaches to Islam, one very heavily influenced and blending Marxism with Islam as confusing as that sounds, the other a mystic tradition rich with Indonesian references and inapplicable in the Middle East. Obama came to the US and deep in his Muslim Indonesian cult met activists in the US who were attracted to the Jeremy Wright kind of politics, a blend of Christianity, Islam and Marxism that had one thing in common-a view that to be progressive one must challenge the white ruling class and develop a super black man capable of resisting racism. We have seen that kind of expression with the Black Muslim sect in the US which Wright who is Obama's pastor openly embraces but interestingly Malcolm X rejected it and it is the anti-thesis of what Martin Luther King stood for. The Martin Luther King vision of religion saw blacks, whites, yellows, gays, women, as all one family. In the Obama world he has bought into a mistaken belief that there is no family,just competing tribes. At the pith and substance of all these conflicts in the Middle East are different visions of Islam clashing with Western Judeo-Christian values. Interestingly Muslims like the Amidyah and Ismaili who have evolved past the fundamentalist beliefs of their fellow Muslims are rejected. Its a complex world. Its easy to write off religions as behind it all and of course it might be deeply related to certain conflicts, but we can not forget as well practical issues such as lack of water, oil, electricity, food, jobs, lack of space to live, grass roots issues like that are also very much in the mix, Edited November 20, 2014 by Rue Quote
GostHacked Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 Its a complex world. Its easy to write off religions as behind it all and of course it might be deeply related to certain conflicts, but we can not forget as well practical issues such as lack of water, oil, electricity, food, jobs, lack of space to live, grass roots issues like that are also very much in the mix, You are right, it is not so much about religion as it is about resources. This is why Israel is moving into the West Bank. Religion is just a facade used to hide the real intentions. Somehow you are going to spin this as anti-semetic. Quote
GostHacked Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 Jews have always been fighter/survivors. An existential threat that lasts a thousand years is not really a threat since the Jews are still here. Quote
Rue Posted November 20, 2014 Author Report Posted November 20, 2014 Why? don't bait Ghost, stick to the topic. In each and every post where I have discussed the conflict I have mentioned it is a complex mix of religious and non religious issues. Anyone who has read my posts (and the entourage have repeatedly told me they don't ) knows I have repeated over and over again n the no.1 source of conflict on the West Bank and all of the Middle East is access to water. Quote
Rue Posted November 20, 2014 Author Report Posted November 20, 2014 Ghost your point is illogical. Someone who has to continue surviving never ending threats doesn't stop getting threatened because they haven't been killed. That applies by the way to anyone not just Jews or Palestinians. Quote
GostHacked Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 Why? don't bait Ghost, stick to the topic. In each and every post where I have discussed the conflict I have mentioned it is a complex mix of religious and non religious issues. Anyone who has read my posts Most glaze over your posts if you had not noticed. Sometimes less is more. (and the entourage have repeatedly told me they don't ) knows I have repeated over and over again n the no.1 source of conflict on the West Bank and all of the Middle East is access to water. Right, so let's continue with that then. No need to bring Jews or Palestinians into it. You get baited every single time (by choice obviously) to reply to events related to Israel. Don't blame them for the bait, blame yourself for taking the bait. Even when the topic is followed, the anti-semite name calling gets thrown about. A violation of the rules if you will. So if the real conflict is about resources, then let's talk about that. You could always start your own topic to deal with those items, or you can continue to keep bitching with long diatribes that rarely anyone reads anymore. Quote
GostHacked Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 Ghost your point is illogical. Someone who has to continue surviving never ending threats doesn't stop getting threatened because they haven't been killed. That applies by the way to anyone not just Jews or Palestinians. If something survives over millennia, there is no existential threat. The modern creation of Israel also tells me that there is no existential threat to the Jewish people. Quote
GostHacked Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 Except so many people are calling for the destruction of Israel, which inturn is calling for the destruction of the Jewish people. Destroying Israel will not destroy the Jewish people. Not all Jews live in Israel. Quote
GostHacked Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 So you're in favor of wiping Israel off the map? I am of the notion it should not have been created in the first place. But there is nothing I personally can do about it. Quote
jbg Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 Jews have always been fighter/survivors. An existential threat that lasts a thousand years is not really a threat since the Jews are still here. As much as I would like to attribute that to G-d I can't. I attribute it to ceaseless migration and where necessary warfare. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Big Guy Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 So the peace process from both sides continue. To promote peace, from the Palestinian side, a couple of suicide bombers (without bombs) take out a few Israeli's in Jerusalem. To promote peace, from the Israeli side, those suicide bound Palestinians are allowed to meet their maker - AND - the Israeli government decides that it does not seem to even out so it decides to demolish the homes of those Palestinians making their families and relatives homeless. Looks like an effort from Netanyahu to placate the hawks in his government since a in 2005 there was an army committee report condemning that kind of retaliation. That 2005 report "determined that razing homes not only failed to deter attacks, but also stoked Palestinian hatred of Israel." The policy was also criticized internationally because of the collective punishment for family members who may not have had no connection to the attacks. In the 5 years before the 2005 report, the Israelis had demolished about 650 Palestinian homes and the policy did not appear to be very effective - but I guess Netanyahu does not believe his military. So now a few more houses have been targeted and the policy will reap its expected results. I wonder how many young suicide bombers were created by those 650 punitive Palestinian home destructions and will be created by future ones. I hope that the material from those homes was not wasted but recycled into new buildings - like those in the increasing new Israeli settlements. I guess the next move towards peace will be from the Palestinians. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 Peace is way overrated when somebody always wants to kill you. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Hudson Jones Posted November 20, 2014 Report Posted November 20, 2014 The Jews weren't just handed Israel. The Jews fought and died on that very soil. The Arabs left instead of living under Jewish rule. They didn;t have to leave. You either don't know the facts or you are purposely whitewashing how over 700,000 Palestinians became refugees. Some Palestinians were physically removed from their towns and villages by Jewish militias and Israeli military. Some fled, because they were being attacked and killed and some fled because they heard stories of massacres in neighbouring villages, like the Deir Yassin massacre where over 100 people were slaughtered. It's also important to know and not lose sight of what the law says about the refugees, without allowing irresponsible rhetoric, like "they lost the war!" or "they left on their own so they don't deserve it!" UN General Assembly Resolution 194, passed on 11 December 1948 and reaffirmed every year since, was the first resolution that called for Israel to let the refugees return: the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Rue Posted November 21, 2014 Author Report Posted November 21, 2014 It would be easier if the Jews just took over the west bank and Gaza and just pushed the Arabs to toher Arab countries. Tons for places for Arabs to go but only one place for Jews to go. BTW Rue, your posts are stuff of legend. Very well put together. I enjoy reading them. Thank you Skipper. Appreciated. Lol. You better duck now. Quote
dre Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 Thank you Skipper. Appreciated. Lol. You better duck now. Nice tacit endorsement of ethnic cleansing! Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
On Guard for Thee Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 No, I didn't say ethnic cleansing. Just relocation. it would be much easier than trying to be nice like they are now. No killing involved. Just roll into these zone s in full military force and round them up house by house and relocate them to a more suitable area. Seems like a win win to me. Probably not very practical though. I wish that no Palestinians or Jews would get killed but Hamas makes that impossible. And what you just described is ethnic cleansing. And one problem with it, besides the obvious, is have you figured out where you'd send them? Which Arab state do you think would accept them? Quote
Hudson Jones Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) Hey, Skipper. Just in case if you cared about meanings: eth·nic cleans·ing noun the mass expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society. It's interesting how, instead of speaking out against Captain Israel, Rue is too busy giggling because someone likes his posts. It looks like Rue is okay with Captain Israel's declaration to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Edited November 22, 2014 by Hudson Jones Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
sharkman Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 Are you really that unable to think critically? Several Arab/Persian nations want to wipe Israel off the map, and the Muslim faith is set against Jews. It's laughable what you find objectionable and what you are fine with. Quote
jbg Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 Nice tacit endorsement of ethnic cleansing! No, I didn't say ethnic cleansing. Just relocation. it would be much easier than trying to be nice like they are now. No killing involved. Just roll into these zone s in full military force and round them up house by house and relocate them to a more suitable area. Seems like a win win to me. Probably not very practical though. I wish that no Palestinians or Jews would get killed but Hamas makes that impossible. In the past I have not remotely favored expulsions. Unless Abbas and/or Hamas gets these attacks under control Israel may have no alternative. Israel cannot live with "people" bursting into synagogues and slaughtering helpless worshipers. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
GostHacked Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 That's not ethnic cleansing to me. No one is being murdered. Like the Jews in WWII or in Bosnia by the Serbs or several places in Africa.. Those are examples of ethnic cleansing. It isn't really going to happen nor was I really advocating it just saying that it would be easier then trying to the nice guys all the time. So what if we moved all the Jews from the area, is that ethnic cleansing? No Jews will be killed during the relocation. Quote
GostHacked Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 Lol, Touche.... The only difference is that Israel was promised to the Jews by God. It is Jewish land. I talked to God last week, he did not promise them anything. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) No need for "God", Israel has a similar cockamamie concept of monarchy and crown backing up the land claims, expanded and consolidated by force. Certainly wouldn't be the first time that has happened ! Edited November 22, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Rue Posted November 22, 2014 Author Report Posted November 22, 2014 Nice tacit endorsement of ethnic cleansing! Dre the attempt to bait me and misrepresent my positions speaks for itself. I have never agreed with or supported the removal of Palestinians from anywhere. Quote
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