jacee Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 The problem is that some members of society try to brand all men as rapists, which is wrong. Cite?Bet you can't support that claim! Women should not be believed at face value. What's to stop them from doing it to anyone? It has happened, many times. Gee ... I don't know ... maybe not wanting to have their sex lives exposed to public scrutiny unnecessarily ... spending days in court ... paying thousands of dollars to lawyers ... being convicted of perjury, losing their job, friends, family ... Yes, I can think of lots of reasons why most women wouldn't want to make spurious claims of sexual assault. We need to make sure those arrested with sexual crimes actually have some evidence against them before destroying their lives. I'm not of the opinion that we should arrest everyone then wait to see if they get off or not. It's too late then, the damage will already have been done and this innocent man's life will be ruined. That's the job of the police and prosecutor, to investigate and ensure they have sufficient evidence to warrant laying charges. Are you saying they don't do their job properly? Can you support that claim? . Quote
cybercoma Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) The problem is that some members of society try to brand all men as rapists, which is wrong.All men are rapists. Right. Perhaps you should stop dealing in absolutes. Every time you do, you create a strawman argument. Not a single person here has claimed that all men are rapists. Women should not be believed at face value.I guess if you said, "people shouldn't be believed at face value," then you would have some valid opinion about taking anyone at their word. You would be voicing your cynicism at human nature, implying that everyone is a liar. Instead you choose to say "women should not be believed." That's nothing more than pure unbridled misogyny. We need to make sure those arrested with sexual crimes actually have some evidence against them before destroying their lives.Who has been arrested here? We're not even talking about a criminal trial. We're talking about a matter that's being dealt with in the workplace. I'm not of the opinion that we should arrest everyone then wait to see if they get off or not.Who said we should arrest everyone? What's with you and the hyperbole? Even jacee said that parliament needs a sexual harassment policy. She's not even saying everyone should be arrested. It's too late then, the damage will already have been done and this innocent man's life will be ruined.How do you know he's innocent and not the one who's actually lying? It says a lot about your character that you'll immediately assume women are all liars and "shouldn't be taken at face value," but you don't for one second consider that the accused shouldn't be taken at face value either. Right here you go so far as to claim they're innocent and that their lives will be ruined. You really have no idea if they're innocent or not. Even ones that go on trial and are found not guilty are not necessarily innocent. There's myriad reasons a not guilty finding could come out of a situation where they did in fact harass or sexually assault someone. Edited November 21, 2014 by cybercoma Quote
hitops Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 needs to be addressed, Nobody knows that this means. Do you? Quote
hitops Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) If black people being disproportionately unemployed is such a problem, they should just go out and get jobs then. If gay people committing suicide is such a problem, they should learn to feel better about themselves. If women making less money than men is such a problem, they should just go out and get higher paying jobs in male-dominated industries. That's exactly the logic you're using and you have absolutely no idea why it's faulty, do you? None of those are analogous to this debate, or even to each other. The sad thing is, on their own (though irrelevant to this debate), you probably actually believe they make sense. Edited November 21, 2014 by hitops Quote
Argus Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 It's known to be. -trudeau-mulcair-distrust-deepens-amid-sexual-harassment-scandal That is a columnist making the same assumptions. None of the official people have termed it so, as in the following where they speak of 'misconduct' http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/11/18/suspended-liberal-mps-in-political-limbo-after-misconduct-allegations/ Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 None of those are analogous to this debate, or even to each other. The sad thing is, on their own (though irrelevant to this debate), you probably actually believe they make sense. Of course they're analogous. It's the kind of logic you're using. In all of those cases, people have systemic barriers to doing what a white middle-class male would do. In this case, you're saying women should just do what you as a man would do. They should just come forward, despite all of the barriers to doing so that women have been trying to tell us over and over again. Instead of actually listening to what the women in the thread are saying, you keep telling saying, and I'm paraphrasing, "Listen here, kitten. My opinion is more important than yours even though you've experienced these things in a way I can't possibly imagine." Quote
Argus Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 Of course they're analogous. It's the kind of logic you're using. In all of those cases, people have systemic barriers to doing what a white middle-class male would do. In this case, you're saying women should just do what you as a man would do. They should just come forward, despite all of the barriers to doing so that women have been trying to tell us over and over again. Instead of actually listening to what the women in the thread are saying, you keep telling saying, and I'm paraphrasing, "Listen here, kitten. My opinion is more important than yours even though you've experienced these things in a way I can't possibly imagine." I think you're exaggerating. And I also think that you're being paternalistic. Are women the equals of men or are they children who need to be coddled and handled with kid gloves in everything? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 Women certainly are not equals to men in our society. They face certain barriers and challenges to their autonomy that men simply don't have to consider. That doesn't mean they need to be "coddled and handled with kid gloves" as you so dismissively put it. It's simply a circumstance that men have the luxury of ignoring. Quote
PIK Posted November 21, 2014 Author Report Posted November 21, 2014 Women are the biggest hypocrites when it comes to sex. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
cybercoma Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 Half the population are hypocrites, eh? Quote
jacee Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 Women are the biggest hypocrites when it comes to sex. Some men just don't get that they are not entitled to sex ... and they're not very good at making themselves interesting or desirable. Sucks to be them. . Quote
jacee Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 Nobody knows that this means. Do you?" Sexual harassment poisons the workplace, needs to be addressed"means ... that workplaces have policies and procedures in place to deal with harassment ... except in parliament ... and that needs to be addressed. Quote
jacee Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 But saying stupid woman would be, so would "get me some coffee sweetheart". As a repeated course of conduct known to be unwelcome ... yes. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) Some men just don't get that they are not entitled to sex ... and they're not very good at making themselves interesting or desirable. Sucks to be them. . Some women don't get it either....it's not just men. Edited November 21, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jacee Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 Some women don't get it either....it's not just men.I quite agree. I know men who have been both sexually harassed and assaulted by women. But until more men are willing to come forward, make it news, we are stuck with the current news issues. Quote
PIK Posted November 21, 2014 Author Report Posted November 21, 2014 And you think women have a hard time coming forward. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
jacee Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 And you think women have a hard time coming forward. I quite agree with you there too ... very hard for men to come forward because they'll be dismissed and denigrated ... by men. . Quote
PIK Posted November 21, 2014 Author Report Posted November 21, 2014 And laugh at by women. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
jacee Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 And laugh at by women. Maybe some. Not most, I don't think. Let's have men come forward, and we'll find out. I forgot to mention that same sex harassment and assault occur for both men and women too. . Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 21, 2014 Report Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) I quite agree. I know men who have been both sexually harassed and assaulted by women. But until more men are willing to come forward, make it news, we are stuck with the current news issues. ...and I know women who have sexually harassed and assaulted....by women....ditto for male perps and victims. It's about behaviour by perp(s) regardless of the victim's gender or sexual orientation. Current policies, education, and prevailing attitudes are stuck in the past. Edited November 21, 2014 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jacee Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 (edited) ...and I know women who have sexually harassed and assaulted....by women....ditto for male perps and victims. It's about behaviour by perp(s) regardless of the victim's gender or sexual orientation. Current policies, education, and prevailing attitudes are stuck in the past.Yup.What he said. :-O bc and I agree! . Edited November 22, 2014 by jacee Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 And you think women have a hard time coming forward. Which rock have you been living under? Of course women have a hard time coming forward. They know that the court system is a stacked gauntlet they don't want to run. Quote
jacee Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 Which rock have you been living under? Of course women have a hard time coming forward. They know that the court system is a stacked gauntlet they don't want to run. Ya but you get the point that it's very hard for men to come forward ... ? . Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 Ya but you get the point that it's very hard for men to come forward ... ? . Oh of course. That would be big time emasculation for one thing. Quote
jacee Posted November 22, 2014 Report Posted November 22, 2014 Oh of course. That would be big time emasculation for one thing. Um ... could you try not to scare them even more? . Quote
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