2 more liberal MP's gone.

[Topaz]

you know, if I was one of those women, I come forward because its not fair to the two MP's and especially what spouses might be thinking. I don't believe the public would frown on them IF there is a real case of harassment but I fear the longer its takes for the MPs to be cleared or found guilty, the tables could turn against the women. Either they have a case or they don't and it doesn't seem ANYONE on the Hill can get control over this. Is there a real case or is someone playing politics?

[PIK]

The left is realizing trudeau is another failure and their comments are showing that. If harper wins another majority ,do the liberals turf trudeau?

[Big Guy]

The accusers are not some shy teenagers. These are MP's elected to parliament to be role models for women. Is this the message mature female role models want to send to young girls - make accusations and then hide behind anonymity?

From some of the posts in this thread it appears that sexual harassment is somehow more odious than other possible crimes and should have a different set of rules. I disagree.

For example; Sheila comes into a hospital with a gunshot wound and claims that Joe shot her. Joe denies that he did and there is no additional evidence on either side. A "he says, she says" scenario. There is no way that Joe gets charged or convicted on the word of one person - the accuser.

Also, there are opinions that many sexual assaults on women take place and the suspects are identified but there is no conviction. Well, there are many homicides where the police are "certain" who the killer is but do not have evidence to prove their "certainty". That is the nature of our judicial system.

As far as I know there is only one place where justice is not completely blind that is where the crime is designated as a hate crime. But even in this instance, the sentence is greater but the burden of proof is the same.

[Big Guy]

I agree that the two women should come out, name their harassers and allow a third party to adjudicate the dispute. To PIK, I am no Trudeau fan but do believe in fairness. Every impartial journalist has opined that Trudeau had no other choice.

As to the two women, coming out will be to their benefit. Everybody on the hill knows who they are and their identities will be soon be revealed through the underground social media communications network. They too are up for election and you can guarantee that their opponents will use their fear to face their accused to try to undermine their leadership qualities.

I would also assume that most women in the NDP caucus who are not involved would be relieved to not be the target of speculation.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Big Guy

[cybercoma]

they have been publicly accused of harassment

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/11/18/kelly-mcparland-sexual-politics-in-ottawa-and-montreal-shift-from-troubling-to-frightening/

This is not true at all. They were privately accused. The head of their party chose to make it public.

[cybercoma]

if I was one of those women, I come forward... I don't believe the public would frown on them IF there is a real case of harassment

Of course you would, but then you're considering it from the angle of all the advantages you have being a man, where these are rarely problems you need to negotiate.

[cybercoma]

The accusers are not some shy teenagers. These are MP's elected to parliament to be role models for women. Is this the message mature female role models want to send to young girls - make accusations and then hide behind anonymity?

Is the message you want to send to women that you would be more critical of them coming forward than you are of their harassers? That your default position is to believe that women are scheming liars and that the people accused of misconduct are innocent? Tell me, if your daughter comes home and tells you she was sexually harassed, do you believe her or just assume she's lying until you ask the guy himself?

[hitops]

Yes exactly, and one of them is for women to talk openly, point fingers about men who have assaulted them. That's taking responsibility for yourself on a certain level, especially if government can't/won't deal with it.

Couldn't agree more. But that doesn't seem to be the public discussion. What we're hearing is that this is all over the place and women can't talk about because this, that, or the other, and so we should all 'do something about it'. Ok, so....what exactly? Should we launch a government program to hire mind-readers? Even Sheila Copps didn't name her assailant.

If it's a problem, make a formal accusation. There SHOULD be a social cost to doing that though, it shouldn't be free, because there's the downside of messing up the lives of innocents as well.

My wife is a nurse and I asked her if she had ever in her career felt she was sexually assaulted or harassed. She said once somebody (a clinician) worked on her floor who was known for making inappropriate comments and he was eventual fired for such. Other than that, no. This is a profession that, if any, is dominated by women in positions of traditionally 'service' and men (docs) in positions or authority.

She also said that she feels really sad for women who are truly 'raped', and that those women who label a lewd comment or an unwanted tap on the bum as 'sexual assault', cheapen the true trauma that raped women go through, and that this is offensive. Could not agree more.

[PIK]

Good post hitops.

[Big Guy]

To cybercoma - My default position is that a person is innocent until proven guilty. As to your anecdotal example - I would (and have) advised my daughter to identify the individual and take all the work related or legal options available to her. In that case I certainly would not be the third party impartial entity. I reviewed my posts on this topic and do not understand that your would frame my position in the strange way that you have framed it.

Prejudging the female to be a liar is the same as prejudging the accused of guilt. Both have the right to be heard and accommodated to the best processes that we have available. That process requires identifying both parties, allowing both parties unencumbered ability to state and prove their cases and have a third person impartial entity to decide on the outcome.

[jacee]

... those women who label a lewd comment

That's sexual harassment, a human rights issue.

or an unwanted tap on the bum as 'sexual assault'

Yes it is, though likely wouldn't be prosecuted.

Sexual harassment poisons the workplace, needs to be addressed, usually by shuffling people around, not often by firing so that must have been a serious case.

Sexual assault is a criminal matter wwith degrees of severity.

Confusing the two to denigrate and dismiss complaints isn't helpful.

.

[cybercoma]

For the women who are "truly" raped. Do you people listen to yourselves talk? This is the kind of mindset that has imbeciles like Todd Akin in the US making comments like, "If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down."

First of all, sexual harassment is any unwanted sexual attention. Do you know who determines whether they wanted that sexual attention or not? The victim. So when someone says she was sexually harassed and you question whether she was really or truly harassed, you're taking a position that claims women have no autonomy over their bodies or say over the sexual attention that they receive. That only a jury or a third party or even the man himself gets to determine whether it was harassment or not.

Sorry, but that's bull and directly contradicts the definition of sexual harassment and if there's physical contact involved it becomes sexual assault. The mindset here about immediately doubting someone when they say they were harassed or claiming that they weren't really or truly harassed is utterly predatory.

[Smallc]

For the women who are "truly" raped. Do you people listen to yourselves talk? This is the kind of mindset that has imbeciles like Todd Akin in the US making comments like, "If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down."

That's nothing but hyperbole. There is such a thing as a false accusation, especially when it comes to sexual assault.

[cybercoma]

If it's a problem, make a formal accusation.

If black people being disproportionately unemployed is such a problem, they should just go out and get jobs then.

If gay people committing suicide is such a problem, they should learn to feel better about themselves.

If women making less money than men is such a problem, they should just go out and get higher paying jobs in male-dominated industries.

That's exactly the logic you're using and you have absolutely no idea why it's faulty, do you?

[cybercoma]

That's nothing but hyperbole. There is such a thing as a false accusation, especially when it comes to sexual assault.

There's also such a thing as harassment that goes unreported to the tune of 88% according to the most recent Juristat numbers in 2009. I don't see you giving a shit about that, when the number of false accusations is dwarfed into insignificance by comparison. If you did care, you would want it to be as accessible as possible for people to come forward, rather than having to worry about being slandered in public.

Edited November 19, 2014 by cybercoma

[Keepitsimple]

There's also such a thing as harassment that goes unreported to the tune of 88% according to the most recent Juristat numbers in 2009. I don't see you giving a shit about that, when the number of false accusations is dwarfed into insignificance by comparison. If you did care, you would want it to be as accessible as possible for people to come forward, rather than having to worry about being slandered in public.

According to On Guard for Thee - you can't measure crime that is not reported.....but it's nice to see that you are aware that there is a lot of unreported crime of every nature - and that the "crime is going down" mantra is misleading at best.

[Smallc]

There's also such a thing as harassment that goes unreported to the tune of 88% according to the most recent Juristat numbers in 2009.

But again, with such a broad definition, what does that even mean? It's honestly gotten to the point where calling someone pretty who doesn't want to be called pretty is harassment.

[Smallc]

According to On Guard for Thee - you can't measure crime that is not reported.....but it's nice to see that you are aware that there is a lot of unreported crime of every nature - and that the "crime is going down" mantra is misleading at best.

I don't buy that. Serious crimes are always reported. If a crime isn't reported, generally, it wasn't much a crime at all.

[guyser]

and that the "crime is going down" mantra is misleading at best.

Pretty sure thats an actual fact.

Do you think this 'non-reported' crime thing is brand new?

[guyser]

It's honestly gotten to the point where calling someone pretty who doesn't want to be called pretty is harassment.

ehhhh.....maybe repeatedly and after being told to stop it, but just calling someone pretty certainly would not be.

And doubly so for sexual harassment.

[Smallc]

ehhhh.....maybe repeatedly and after being told to stop it, but just calling someone pretty certainly would not be.

And doubly so for sexual harassment.

But then, if someone sees it that way, that suddenly becomes unreported sexual harassment. See how that works (and yes, unfortunately, it can fit the definition)?

Edited November 19, 2014 by Smallc

[guyser]

But then, if someone sees it that way, that suddenly becomes unreported sexual harassment. See how that works (and yes, unfortunately, it can fit the definition)?

Im not seeing that though.

A one off ? Hard to prosecute that one.

[jacee]

But then, if someone sees it that way, that suddenly becomes unreported sexual harassment. See how that works (and yes, unfortunately, it can fit the definition)?

Repeatedly, after told it is unwelcome, it is harassment.

.

[Smallc]

It doesn't have to be though. That's the problem, and that's where these massive statistics most likely come from.

[On Guard for Thee]

It doesn't have to be though. That's the problem, and that's where these massive statistics most likely come from.

If it's stated to be unwelcome then it's time to shut up and if you don't suffer the consequences. This is not rocket science.