On Baring your face in public

[Big Guy]

Has nothing to do with a trial. It's about taking an oath which is a ceremonial event. The SCC won't have a problem at all.

Can you wear a tasteful colander on your head (fitted with maple leaves) when you are sworn in?

[WestCoastRunner]

I consider myself extremely lucky to have been born and raised in Canada, especially as a woman.

When I see women walking the streets, covering themselves with Burkas, I have extreme empathy for them. They are being oppressed from expressing their unique individualism. Let's remember that the Burka is not a dress code for Muslims. It is quite simply a medieval oppression dictated by extreme Islamic men to further alienate them from society and suppress their rights. These women have had strict conditioning (brain washing) to wear the Burkas so of course they will insist on wearing them.

Canada should be doing everything it can to protect, educate and promote these women's rights and that can be partly done by requirig them to remove their Burkas during this important ceremony. Removing the Burka may also offer them a tiny glimpse into Canada's stand for equality and civil liberties of all women in Canada.

Even the Muslim Canadian Congress has asked to expand the Burka Ban.

[Derek 2.0]

Can you wear a tasteful colander on your head (fitted with maple leaves) when you are sworn in?

Down Under, its apparently no problem on Government ID:

But in BC, a man doing the like lost his driver license:

The nearly year-long conflict between Obi Canuel, 36, and the Insurance Corp. of B.C. came to a boil Friday, when ICBC refused to renew Canuel’s licence unless he went hatless for his I.D. photo. Canuel had been driving with a temporary paper licence for months after clashing publicly with the insurer in August.

Canuel, who is an ordained minister in the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, says it’s his religious right to wear a colander for his photo, just as members of other faiths are allowed to wear turbans and other coverings for their photos. Canuel says his headgear is protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and he should not be forced to take it off.

[eyeball]

Even the Muslim Canadian Congress has asked to expand the Burka Ban.

It would be nice to see the MCC and Immigration Canada suggest that men who can't control their urges should wear blinders.

[dre]

I dont personally care much about the stupid oath at all. Its meaningless symbolism that I would probably just do away with.

But as long as we are going to keep it, I think that any rules around it should be applied the same to everyone. I dont care if she wears this thing on her head or not, but if she IS allowed to wear it, then everyone else that wants to should be allowed as well.

[cybercoma]

I don't think so. This thing is culturally forced on women and young girls as a means of hiding temptation from men. Women are attractive, and this creates lust in men. Therefore, the shroud is designed to prevent women from making guys horny. As such it represents all the baser elements of Islam and its obsession with female sexuality and chastity and the need to control them at all costs.

You're not even a person in these. You're a thing. An unidentified moving object, as some western troops call females in Afghanistan. You have no presence. You're faceless, with little ability to interact on a human level with your fellow humans. The garment isolates you from society, which is its intent. Isn't it a well-known fact that men who abuse their spouses like to isolate them too? This shroud does that in spades.

Given a choice I believe most Canadians would prefer any men who thinks his wives and daughters should wear this thing be prevented from coming to Canada in the first place.

You know it's possible for a woman to be autonomous, independent and choose to wear a veil in observance of her faith. I'm guessing you've never read much from Muslim feminists.

I think the reason tyrannical governments force veils on women is stupid. Women didn't wear burqas in Afghanistan prior to Taliban oppression.

But you know what it all comes down to? An independent, autonomous, free-willed woman can decide for herself what she wants to wear. In Canada, she's not required by law to wear a veil. What Jason Kenney has done though, is decided for these women what they should and should not be wearing during the oath, when it has no bearing on the legal scenario. This woman's identity was confirmed in private. Her legal documents signed affirming her oath. Having her unveiled in public against her will is still dictating to a woman through force of law how she must act. It's completely inappropriate in this situation. Tyrannies in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan have decided for women what they should wear in public and Jason Kenney has decided for these women what they should wear in public here. Both situation deny these women their free will, when it's not appropriate to do so. Situations where it might be appropriate are when they need to identify her for her legal documentation or when she takes the stand in court a judge and jury need to read her expressions and body language. But making her unveil in public to make a ceremonial oath is a meaningless gesture to the conservative base not unlike their sick day nonsense with the public service.

[cybercoma]

I consider myself extremely lucky to have been born and raised in Canada, especially as a woman.

When I see women walking the streets, covering themselves with Burkas, I have extreme empathy for them. They are being oppressed from expressing their unique individualism. Let's remember that the Burka is not a dress code for Muslims. It is quite simply a medieval oppression dictated by extreme Islamic men to further alienate them from society and suppress their rights. These women have had strict conditioning (brain washing) to wear the Burkas so of course they will insist on wearing them.

Canada should be doing everything it can to protect, educate and promote these women's rights and that can be partly done by requirig them to remove their Burkas during this important ceremony. Removing the Burka may also offer them a tiny glimpse into Canada's stand for equality and civil liberties of all women in Canada.

Even the Muslim Canadian Congress has asked to expand the Burka Ban.

You might want to be careful about using feminism as an excuse for cultural imperialism. There are many Muslim feminist scholars who see the "ban the veil" movement as insulting to their free will to choose. It's another form of patriarchy, having Western women force their views of what women should and shouldn't do upon Muslim women. You might want to read this. http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/09/calling-all-feminists-get-over-veil-debate-focus-real-problems-201392573343242621.html

[Guest]

It's also possible for young girls to want to become wife number 8 or 9 of some old guy in Bountiful, but the balance of probability says they are coerced.

Any feminist who thinks advocating for women to come out from under the yoke of a cultural oppression is instead creating an excuse for cultural imperialism is no feminist, and is probably not even sane.

[cybercoma]

It's also possible for young girls to want to become wife number 8 or 9 of some old guy in Bountiful, but the balance of probability says they are coerced.

Any feminist who thinks advocating for women to come out from under the yoke of a cultural oppression is instead creating an excuse for cultural imperialism is no feminist, and is probably not even sane.

All under the patriarchal assumption that women can't make decisions for themselves.

By the way, how's that war on nuns going to get them out from under their veils? How about the war on Pentecostal Christians in Canada to stop them from forcing their women into long skirts and forcing them not to cut their hair?

Is forcing women into costumes really an issue for you people or is it just when Muslims do it?

Edited October 19, 2014 by cybercoma

[WWWTT]

If I'm wearing a hat, upon entering a union meeting, I have to take that hat off. Same goes for entering a church.

I do so willingly for respect of those institutions.

Applying some respect for our Canadian institutions seems in order to me. And as long as the rules are applied across the board fairly as another poster mentioned earlier, I don't have a problem with it.

WWWTT

[cybercoma]

Yup. Same thing.

[Guest]

All under the patriarchal assumption that women can't make decisions for themselves.

By the way, how's that war on nuns going to get them out from under their veils? How about the war on Pentecostal Christians in Canada to stop them from forcing their women into long skirts and forcing them not to cut their hair?

Is forcing women into costumes really an issue for you people or is it just when Muslims do it?

Oh rubbish. This is the same mentality that excuses the excesses of Islam today by bringing up the Crusades. I'm on record on here as being against any law that bans a woman from wearing headgear as choice is the most important factor. The same with polygamy.

But we all know that the vast majority of these women are coerced. I know it, and so do you. Any feminist who excuses this based on some reasoning that we are imposing our cultural views on them should be ashamed of themselves.

As for your last sentence, how many Muslims live in Bountiful?

[cybercoma]

Muslim women themselves, many of them also feminists, have spoken out against Western feminists and their "ban the veil" rhetoric. They don't want to nor need to be "saved" by Western women and are insistent that all of this nonsense about veils takes away from the more serious problems they want help addressing. Maybe if you actually listened to what these women say, instead of telling them what they believe, you could be more helpful.

Edited October 19, 2014 by cybercoma

[WestCoastRunner]

Muslim women themselves, many of them also feminists, have spoken out against Western feminists and their "ban the veil" rhetoric. They don't want to nor need to be "saved" by Western women and are insistent that all of this nonsense about veils takes away from the more serious problems they want help addressing. Maybe if you actually listened to what these women say, instead of telling them what they believe, you could be more helpful.

For every Muslim feminist that supports the right to wear the burqa, there are also many that do not. Perhaps if we actually listened to these women, we could be more helpful.

Mona Eltahawy is an Egyptian-born commentator on Arab and Muslim issues

Feminist Muslim Sihem Habchi on the burka and women's rights

An Egyptian Feminist writes on the Burqa Ban

Feminists silent about women in burqas

[cybercoma]

For every Muslim feminist that supports the right to wear the burqa, there are also many that do not. Perhaps if we actually listened to these women, we could be more helpful.

Mona Eltahawy is an Egyptian-born commentator on Arab and Muslim issues

Feminist Muslim Sihem Habchi on the burka and women's rights

An Egyptian Feminist writes on the Burqa Ban

Feminists silent about women in burqas

And it's up to them to decide. The point is that dictatorships that demand women wearing them is bad. Anyone that tells women how they should dress are acting as though women have no free will. The point is that they should decide for themselves and not be told what to do, whether that's tyrannical regimes forcing them under the veil or Western feminist "saviours" forcing them out of the veil.

[Guest]

But it's not up to them to decide at all. For the vast majority of Muslim women, it's up to their men to decide.

[cybercoma]

But it's not up to them to decide at all. For the vast majority of Muslim women, it's up to their men to decide.

And during ceremonial oaths, apparently it's up to Jason Kenney to decide.

[Smallc]

And during ceremonial oaths, apparently it's up to Jason Kenney to decide.

It's a cultural coersion. None of them are freely making this choice.

[Argus]

You know it's possible for a woman to be autonomous, independent and choose to wear a veil in observance of her faith. I'm guessing you've never read much from Muslim feminists.

If you choose to wear this thing in Canada its simply because you've absorbed the religious repression and self hatred that Islam imposes on women. No one other than a religious fanatic who deliberately wants to exclude herself from the society around her would wear such an uncomfortable garment. It blocks your vision, is swelteringly hot in summer, and its main purpose is to mark you as "other" in the minds of everyone else in this society.

What choosing to shroud yourself says is that you reject our society and its culture and its people, and want nothing to do with any of them. Why on earth would we allow you to come here and be a citizen, given that?

This woman and her family should be put on a plane back to where they will be more comfortable.

[Argus]

And it's up to them to decide. The point is that dictatorships that demand women wearing them is bad. Anyone that tells women how they should dress are acting as though women have no free will. The point is that they should decide for themselves and not be told what to do, whether that's tyrannical regimes forcing them under the veil or Western feminist "saviours" forcing them out of the veil.

There's no tyranical regime forcing women to wear this stuff in most of the world. They're not embracing it in Egypt and Turkey because the regime is demanding they do so. They're certainly not wearing it in Canada because the Harper government wants them to.

For the most part, they're wearing it because of pressure from their family, both the men in their family, and often enough the older women. And that pressure can certainly be physical. Wife beating is entirely acceptable for religious Muslims, after all. You can even find their scholars on the internet explaining the justification, and how thick the stick can be, where the husband can hit his wife, etc. I saw a survey recently, and not the Pew Survey I've mentioned, another one I can find if you like, which says most Muslim women in Muslim countries expect to be beaten if they get out of line, like if they go out or make a medical appointment without their husband's permission.

[cybercoma]

It's a cultural coersion. None of them are freely making this choice.

Nobody makes any choices outside their cultures.

[Big Guy]

The cultural intolerance is coming from her. Not us. She's asking to be a citizen of our country. Not us to hers. It seemed like common sense to not have your face covered when taking an oath. But liberalism and political correctness is the antithesis of logic and common sense.

Perhaps it is the Queen of Canada who, should have the last say on what the acceptable headdress is while taking the Oath. After all, the Oath of Citizenship, or Citizenship Oath is a statement recited and signed by those who apply to become citizens of Canada. Administered at a ceremony presided over by a designated official, the oath is a promise or declaration of fealty to the Canadian monarch and a promise to abide by Canada's laws and uphold the duties of a Canadian citizen; upon signing the oath, citizenship is granted to the applicant.

The Oath itself is the following;

“I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.”

[Argus]

Nobody makes any choices outside their cultures.

Why would we accept someone as a citizen who explicitly rejects our society, culture and values?

[eyeball]

I dont personally care much about the stupid oath at all. Its meaningless symbolism that I would probably just do away with.

Maybe the symbolism would become meaningful if the oaths that politicians take were more than just for show.

[WWWTT]

If you choose to wear this thing in Canada its simply because you've absorbed the religious repression and self hatred that Islam imposes on women. No one other than a religious fanatic who deliberately wants to exclude herself from the society around her would wear such an uncomfortable garment. It blocks your vision, is swelteringly hot in summer, and its main purpose is to mark you as "other" in the minds of everyone else in this society.

What choosing to shroud yourself says is that you reject our society and its culture and its people, and want nothing to do with any of them. Why on earth would we allow you to come here and be a citizen, given that?

This woman and her family should be put on a plane back to where they will be more comfortable.

Ya I find this comment a little over the top.

Its just about taking an oath buddy.

WWWTT