On Baring your face in public

[WWWTT]

Perhaps it is the Queen of Canada who, should have the last say on what the acceptable headdress is while taking the Oath. After all, the Oath of Citizenship, or Citizenship Oath is a statement recited and signed by those who apply to become citizens of Canada. Administered at a ceremony presided over by a designated official, the oath is a promise or declaration of fealty to the Canadian monarch and a promise to abide by Canada's laws and uphold the duties of a Canadian citizen; upon signing the oath, citizenship is granted to the applicant.

Good point!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Why would we accept someone as a citizen who explicitly rejects our society, culture and values?

I find this point to also be a good one.

WWWTT

[Smallc]

Nobody makes any choices outside their cultures.

But not all cultural practices are of equal value. That's the point. Theirs is, generally, a far more opressive culture.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Smallc

[cybercoma]

But not all cultural practices are of equal value. That's the point. Theirs is, generally, a far more impressive culture.

Who's they? You just talking about all Muslims now because different Muslims come from very different cultures.

Edited October 20, 2014 by cybercoma

[Smallc]

First, yes, all of them. Second, some in particular are far worse. Third, I hate autocorrect.

[cybercoma]

There is no "their" culture, since Muslims come from many different cultures and therefore have many different cultural practices. Moreover, a lot of the tyrannical practices are not cultural, but the result of political oppression. You don't see Turkey requiring their women to be entirely covered in a blanket, like the women of Afghanistan (post-Taliban). You don't see Muslim women in Iran getting their genitals hacked up like the Muslims in Central Africa. So when you say "their" it meaninglessly broadbrushes 1.6 billion people, who are as different from each other as they are from those who are not Muslim.

[Smallc]

Overall Muslim cultures are far more opressive. Specifically, some are FAR more opressive.

[cybercoma]

More oppressive than what? Non-Muslim countries?

[Argus]

Who's they? You just talking about all Muslims now because different Muslims come from very different cultures.

True. Some come from extremist cultures. Some come from fanatic cultures. Some just come from extremely backward conservative cultures.

[Argus]

There is no "their" culture, since Muslims come from many different cultures and therefore have many different cultural practices. Moreover, a lot of the tyrannical practices are not cultural, but the result of political oppression. You don't see Turkey requiring their women to be entirely covered in a blanket, like the women of Afghanistan (post-Taliban). You don't see Muslim women in Iran getting their genitals hacked up like the Muslims in Central Africa. So when you say "their" it meaninglessly broadbrushes 1.6 billion people, who are as different from each other as they are from those who are not Muslim.

Can you point out an 'enlightened' Muslim country for me? Can you point out a Muslim country which does not have a cultural mindset with regard to women, gays, etc., which would infuriate you if exhibited by a White Canadian?

And btw, the use of the shroud is spreading rapidly in Turkey at the behest and encouragement of its Islamist government.

[Big Guy]

More oppressive than what? Non-Muslim countries?

Looks like that bastion of tolerance, Australia, is starting to rethink their policies.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2014/10/australia-parliament-reverses-ace-veil-rule-20141020122821122202.html

[Smallc]

More oppressive than what? Non-Muslim countries?

Generally, yes.

[cybercoma]

Can you point out an 'enlightened' Muslim country for me? Can you point out a Muslim country which does not have a cultural mindset with regard to women, gays, etc., which would infuriate you if exhibited by a White Canadian?

And btw, the use of the shroud is spreading rapidly in Turkey at the behest and encouragement of its Islamist government.

I work with a woman who just came here from Iran. She seems like any other woman from Canada and is staunchly feminist. My problem is not with you identifying political zealotry and whatnot. My problem is with you broad-brushing individuals with your bigotry. You're very quick to move between "Muslims" (that is individuals) to cultures to "countries" (politics). The problem with your arguments and the things you say is that you're completely blind to the individuals who come from these places and cultures. Your thinking is so dull on the topic, it's as if you were arguing that Americans all ascribe to FOX News nuttery. You have a problem with some particular thing, then let's look at that thing. But instead of having your usual sharpness of wit, you become dull-witted and just resort to "them" when it comes to Muslims, despite people pointing out to you time and again that there is nothing in common with all Muslims other than belonging to the same religion. Much of the "backwards" and "horrific" things that happen in "Muslim countries" is being done by Muslims against Muslims who oppose each other. You oversimplify complex and terrible situations with your nonsensical, "ME CULTURE/RELIGION GOOD, THEM BAD!"

[cybercoma]

Generally, yes.

"Generally," eh? So there's Muslim countries that are vastly less oppressive than some non-Muslim countries.

[Smallc]

"Generally," eh? So there's Muslim countries that are vastly less oppressive than some non-Muslim countries.

Yes there are probably some examples...but generally yes

[Argus]

I work with a woman who just came here from Iran. She seems like any other woman from Canada and is staunchly feminist. My problem is not with you identifying political zealotry and whatnot. My problem is with you broad-brushing individuals with your bigotry. You're very quick to move between "Muslims" (that is individuals) to cultures to "countries" (politics).

We're not discussing individuals. Aren't you smart enough to figure that out? Or do you think there's anyone here who believes every member of a group is going to be precisely the same as the generally defined characteristics of the group?

For example, while 90% of the people in a given country might say it's fine to execute any Muslim who decides he doesn't want to be a Muslim, that still means 10% are not. That's millions of people. Do you think I'm not cognizant of that fact? Or does your that bleeding heart determination of yours to protect 'brown people' from any criticism blind you just like in your picture.

Being able to see no evil is not a good characteristic.

[Argus]

"Generally," eh? So there's Muslim countries that are vastly less oppressive than some non-Muslim countries.

I don't know any Muslim country whose cultural value system isn't vastly more oppressive and retrograde than ours.

[cybercoma]

I think you're paying lip service to ecological fallacies, despite making them constantly and insulting millions of people with your Western pride rhetoric.

[Argus]

I think you're paying lip service to ecological fallacies, despite making them constantly and insulting millions of people with your Western pride rhetoric.

You'll have to define 'paying lip service to ecological fallacies' since I haven't the slightest idea what the hell you're talking about.

[Bonam]

I consider myself extremely lucky to have been born and raised in Canada, especially as a woman.

When I see women walking the streets, covering themselves with Burkas, I have extreme empathy for them. They are being oppressed from expressing their unique individualism. Let's remember that the Burka is not a dress code for Muslims. It is quite simply a medieval oppression dictated by extreme Islamic men to further alienate them from society and suppress their rights. These women have had strict conditioning (brain washing) to wear the Burkas so of course they will insist on wearing them.

Canada should be doing everything it can to protect, educate and promote these women's rights and that can be partly done by requirig them to remove their Burkas during this important ceremony. Removing the Burka may also offer them a tiny glimpse into Canada's stand for equality and civil liberties of all women in Canada.

Even the Muslim Canadian Congress has asked to expand the Burka Ban.

Great post.

[Guest]

You'll have to define 'paying lip service to ecological fallacies' since I haven't the slightest idea what the hell you're talking about.

I think he means something to the effect that, if you have evidence to show the Ku Klux Klan are bad, it's wrong to infer that a member of the Ku Klux Klan is necessarily bad. Because he might not be.

[Argus]

I think he means something to the effect that, if you have evidence to show the Ku Klux Klan are bad, it's wrong to infer that a member of the Ku Klux Klan is necessarily bad. Because he might not be.

It's not the act of wearing a bedsheet which makes you bad. Wearing the bedsheet is simply an indication of where your mind is at, whether you're a klucker or a very religious Muslim. So I think most of us would say we don't think much of people who wear bedsheets.

I'm sure there are some kindly, tolerant, open minded Muslims. I'm equally sure they aren't the ones wearing these things.

[The_Squid]

I consider myself extremely lucky to have been born and raised in Canada, especially as a woman.

When I see women walking the streets, covering themselves with Burkas, I have extreme empathy for them. They are being oppressed from expressing their unique individualism. Let's remember that the Burka is not a dress code for Muslims. It is quite simply a medieval oppression dictated by extreme Islamic men to further alienate them from society and suppress their rights. These women have had strict conditioning (brain washing) to wear the Burkas so of course they will insist on wearing them.

Canada should be doing everything it can to protect, educate and promote these women's rights and that can be partly done by requirig them to remove their Burkas during this important ceremony. Removing the Burka may also offer them a tiny glimpse into Canada's stand for equality and civil liberties of all women in Canada.

Even the Muslim Canadian Congress has asked to expand the Burka Ban.

I agree with Bonam. Great post.

[hitops]

My grandparents came to Canada from a country where men like dto wear skirts. They call 'em kilts. And they played an instrument the soiund of which could peal the paint off the water tower. Should they have banned them too?

Yes, if that obstructed a legal process. It doesn't, so we don't.

You have to show your face for a few things in Canada for the sake of law and order, such as being identifiable to police and getting a driver's license, etc. End of issue. Can't do it? Nobody packed you in a shipping container against your will and forced you to come here.

....and if they did, I guess you didn't want to be here anyway.

Edited October 21, 2014 by hitops

[guyser]

You have to show your face for a few things in Canada for the sake of law and order, such as being identifiable to police and getting a driver's license, etc. End of issue.

No you dont. Only when driving a car.

If they suspect you have committed an offence, or saw you do so then they can ask or arrest you.

Otherwise, nope.