War Against ISIL

[Big Guy]

This post is more about the war against Al-Qaeda but I dare not start another thread that will become Israel based.

The USA has sent a 40 soldier strong rescue mission into Yemen to rescue an American hostage. The attempt was unsuccessful in that the American hostage and a South African teacher hostage were shot during the process and died on the way out of Yemen.

The American representative claimed that they had information that the American hostage would soon be killed and they had no more time to negotiate. It is generally accepted that the USA mission, though unsuccessful, was understood by all'

BUT

South African government and other sources have revealed that the release for the South African hostage had been negotiated and he was to be released to-day. They made no comment on the American mission that ended up with the death of their national - one who was on his way home.

I wonder if the Americans knew about the negotiated release of the South African and/or if it would have made a difference in the timing of their mission.

A tough call for the Americans - I wonder what the reaction is by the dead South Africans family and friends.

[Rue]

The moment the South African was kidnapped and kept with the American he was a hostage. . It is in fact Al Quaeda claiming they were planning to release the South African BUT NOT American that forced the US's hand to try save the American.

If Al Quaeda had received their ransom money from the South African government they are 100% to blame for putting him with the American who they were intending to kill. They were using that South African's life as a hostage to try prevent the US raid. The US was not going to ignore trying to save an American because it might accidentally kill a South African.

I believe Al Quaeda are liars. They lie. That is what they do. Their belief is that lying is an acceptable war tactic,. They used this South African as a shield to try prevent an American attack and it failed.

As for the South African government, paying off terrorists who kidnap their citizens is their right but it simly empowers and fuels terrorists.

The fact is once kidnapped by terrorists hostages are dead.

Its a cold hard fact. Capitulating to terrorists and giving them money only enables them to do it again.

[Big Guy]

Well, here we are folks. It is now Christmas and the magnificent force of the USA, Canada led coalition has managed to "blunt the advance" of that small ragtag group of turbaned extremists. I guess blunting the advance is better than continuing to lose ground. The coalition members just seem not to get it. The areas held by ISIS are Sunni lands and the Sunnis support them. Meanwhile, every day hundreds of whako extremists gravitate to the ISIS cause while we toss bombs creating even more terrorists.

The members of the coalition still have no idea what is happening on the ground. The following is from an impartial German journalist who was there and saw for himself what is going on;

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/2014/12/qa-german-journalist-surviving-isil-20141224164752725983.html

He says what those in the know have been saying for years - the West will never win this war. It is the Sunnis who will have to deal with the radicals. This is a civil war in which Canada has no business being involved. Already a Jordanian airplane has been reported to have been shot down. Do we stay there until they start to pick off Canadian jets?

Remember that 6 months ago, a great coalition of the West was going to make short work of a small bunch of radicals in Iraq and Syria. The USA has reported that it is costing them $10 million a day fighting ISIS. That is just the USA. So far after 6 months and $millions in expenditures we have been able to "blunt their advance".

BLUNT THEIR ADVANCE !?!?

Looks to me like we are on our way to losing this one too.

Time for Canada to pull out, let the Americans try to fix what they broke and let the civil war decide the winners there.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Big Guy

[bush_cheney2004]

Oh my....it seems that some wish for Canada to only deploy its killing machines when victory is assured and the costs are minimized. How dare ISIS drag this into the Christmas holiday season. Who knew that "peacekeeping" would be so damn expensive...might even have to buy more bombs. Perish the thought !

[GostHacked]

Assad using barrel bombs against rebels, bad, but now that the barrel bombs are targetting ISIS... no problem.

What a shit show.

[GostHacked]

Now that the USA has declared the war in Afghanistan over, I wonder if we will see a ramp up or terrorist like activities in that country like we did in Iraq. Is all this really that predictable?

[Bonam]

Now that the USA has declared the war in Afghanistan over, I wonder if we will see a ramp up or terrorist like activities in that country like we did in Iraq. Is all this really that predictable?

Of course.

[eyeball]

No kidding it was predicted back in 2001.

[GostHacked]

No kidding it was predicted back in 2001.

I guess that is the real tragedy here. That all this is that damn predictable. The cat calls of 'tin foil hat' are getting less and less as many start to understand the real state of this so called WOT and the world in general.

[eyeball]

I'd say the derision is still there - that's not going away any time soon. Now they're just trying to figure out a narrative that says the west always knew interfering in the region was wrong and that it was a bunch of leftist thinking that actually dragged us into it.

[Rue]

I am not sure what the point of the last responses were and I will not repeat what Bush or Derek stated again but I will say this, ISIL is going no where. It is a fait accompli and like Al Quaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and so many other Muslim extremist terror cells they are supported by Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, certain regimes and a financial network that sells heroin, hash hish and has no problems raising money from child pornography, prostitution and other illegal activities in the West.

Its a problem that is a direct threat to the West, Western values, and our security and it is not going away. Ignoring it won't make it go away. Engaging in denial won't make it go away. Engaging in the pathetic, Muslim extremist terrorists only attack bad Westerners or Zionists also won't make them go away.

This is a war. Its a war not only targeted towards bad Americans or Jews/Zionists, it is a war against all of the West.

Once Obama leaves office, and his disasterous attempt to engage with the Muslim Brotherhood is disconnected, the US will resume its role as leader of the West and things will change.

To start with Obama's half assed disdain for the US Armed Forces will not paralyze the US from doing what it has to do.

As for those of you who hate American involvement in the world, guess what, you go embrace ISIL and Putin, but some of us will sure as hell welcome their role and support them in the war against Muslim extremist terrorism and we will enlist the help of moderate Muslims to do just that-we will not abandon them at the hands of ISIL or Iran.

[dre]

I am not sure what the point of the last responses were and I will not repeat what Bush or Derek stated again but I will say this, ISIL is going no where. It is a fait accompli and like Al Quaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and so many other Muslim extremist terror cells they are supported by Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, certain regimes and a financial network that sells heroin, hash hish and has no problems raising money from child pornography, prostitution and other illegal activities in the West.

Its a problem that is a direct threat to the West, Western values, and our security and it is not going away. Ignoring it won't make it go away. Engaging in denial won't make it go away. Engaging in the pathetic, Muslim extremist terrorists only attack bad Westerners or Zionists also won't make them go away.

This is a war. Its a war not only targeted towards bad Americans or Jews/Zionists, it is a war against all of the West.

Once Obama leaves office, and his disasterous attempt to engage with the Muslim Brotherhood is disconnected, the US will resume its role as leader of the West and things will change.

To start with Obama's half assed disdain for the US Armed Forces will not paralyze the US from doing what it has to do.

As for those of you who hate American involvement in the world, guess what, you go embrace ISIL and Putin, but some of us will sure as hell welcome their role and support them in the war against Muslim extremist terrorism and we will enlist the help of moderate Muslims to do just that-we will not abandon them at the hands of ISIL or Iran.

Good lord what moronic tripe. Isil IS a result of american involvement in the world. And the claim they are backed by Iran is stupid even for Rue. Iran actually is the country most threatened by the establishment of a hard line Sunni state.

"Once Obama leaves". Hahahahahahaha. Isil is a direct result of the Bush invasion of Iraq. As for them posing a threat to the west this is just more nonsense hyperbole. The real threat they pose is to the regions Shia... Especially Iran, Iraq, and Syria.

What a bunch of abject nonsense.

Edited December 31, 2014 by dre

[PrimeNumber]

I am not sure what the point of the last responses were and I will not repeat what Bush or Derek stated again but I will say this, ISIL is going no where. It is a fait accompli and like Al Quaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and so many other Muslim extremist terror cells they are supported by Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, certain regimes and a financial network that sells heroin, hash hish and has no problems raising money from child pornography, prostitution and other illegal activities in the West.

Its a problem that is a direct threat to the West, Western values, and our security and it is not going away. Ignoring it won't make it go away. Engaging in denial won't make it go away. Engaging in the pathetic, Muslim extremist terrorists only attack bad Westerners or Zionists also won't make them go away.

This is a war. Its a war not only targeted towards bad Americans or Jews/Zionists, it is a war against all of the West.

Once Obama leaves office, and his disasterous attempt to engage with the Muslim Brotherhood is disconnected, the US will resume its role as leader of the West and things will change.

To start with Obama's half assed disdain for the US Armed Forces will not paralyze the US from doing what it has to do.

As for those of you who hate American involvement in the world, guess what, you go embrace ISIL and Putin, but some of us will sure as hell welcome their role and support them in the war against Muslim extremist terrorism and we will enlist the help of moderate Muslims to do just that-we will not abandon them at the hands of ISIL or Iran.

Yeah because Bush and the Republicans did such a good job on the first go around...

It's crazy people are willing to give them another crack at the middle east. Let's see how many more violent factions the Republicans and their military can create this time around.

[bush_cheney2004]

...As for those of you who hate American involvement in the world, guess what, you go embrace ISIL and Putin, but some of us will sure as hell welcome their role and support them in the war against Muslim extremist terrorism and we will enlist the help of moderate Muslims to do just that-we will not abandon them at the hands of ISIL or Iran.

Agreed...this is the practical reality. Do America's detractors in Canada really think that Justin Trudeau will alter Canadian policy and save the day with warm blankets instead of laser guided bombs ? Trudeau...and Canada...will lead the West to peace and social justice !!

[PrimeNumber]

Agreed...this is the practical reality. Do America's detractors in Canada really think that Justin Trudeau will alter Canadian policy and save the day with warm blankets instead of laser guided bombs ? Trudeau...and Canada...will lead the West to peace and social justice !!

hahaha no but I'mmmm suuuuuuuure Murica' and their guns will lead the west to peace and social justice /sarcasm

[Rue]

Dre at no time did I state Iran supported ISIS.

The comments such as moronic tripe, stupid even for Rue, abject nonsense, show you have no positions so you will revert to name calling.

ISIS was not created by Bush as everyone knows. It was a direct result of a decision by Erdogan and Morsi to train and arm militant Sunni extremists of the Muslim Brotherhood to dispose of Ghaddafi and then supposedly move into Syria to do the same with Assad in Syria.

Bush never supported, financed or armed Sunni extremists or Shiite extremists. In fact Bush's tactic was to place a private army into Iraq to keep the Sunnis and Shiites away from each other and to allow Haliburton through its exclusive contracts for those security agents and reconstruction firms to rebuild Iraq.

Iraqis were not hired as part of the rebuild because Chaney-Rumsfeld the former executives of Haliburton who oversaw this project felt they would be compromised by terrorists.

It was Obama who decided to form an alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood and take operatives out of al Quaeda loyal to the Muslim Brotherhood to form ISIS.

It was Obama who refused to support the moderate Sunnis in Syria in their civil war against Assad since they were not loyal to the Muslim Brotherhood.

It was Obama and Erdogan not Bush who created the disasterous ISIS that turned rogue on Obama and Erdogan.

Obama's half brother overseas fundraising for the Muslim Brotherhood and all operations in Sudan which is why Obama has never said a peep about the continued slaughter of Sudanese Christians.

Obama forged a Muslim Brotherhood alliance with Erdogan and Morsi and this is why he did not say a peep when Morsi after being elected called on his citizens to attack Coptic Christians blaming them for Egypt's failed economy.

Obama's father in Kenya is a prominent Muslim Brotherhood supporter. So is his step father in Indonesia.

Obama hired over 8 Muslim brotherhood advisors in his inner office.

He has openly supported Hamas which has direct ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. In the middle of the conflict with Israel, Netanyahu and Abbas through a deal brokered by Egypt were ready to walk away from the conflict. it is now fact Kerry intervened and told Hamas not to take the deal.

it is Obama's official position that Israel should unilaterally withdraw to 1967 borders and not expect or ask for any security agreement that in return for that Hamas disarm or the PA disarm and both renounce their positions that Israel can not be a Jewish state.

The current Hamas and PA positions which Obama supports openly is that Israel should not ever be expected to be recognized as a Jewish state, and that its acceptable for Hamas to remain armed with a constitution that says the way with Israel continues.

The PA is already on record by Arafat confirmed by Abbas over and over again that the withdrawal to 1967 borders is just the first phase in having Israel turned into a Muslim sharia state with a majority of Muslims.

Dre you can call me all the couched names you want, pretend ISIS was created by Bush, but the fact remains the Obama foreign policy is public domain. So is the fact that he turned to 81 year old Zbginiew Brezinski as his Middle East advisor, a man credited with Jimmy Carter's failed foreign policy.

It Is Brezinski who believes Israel should not be an ally of the US nor Egypt or Saudi Arabia or the UAE and that the US's main ally should be Iran.

Obama thought he could use his connections with the Muslim Brotherhood to put Muslim brotherhood governments in Libya and Syria, and then suck up to Iran to put a pro Iranian puppet in Iraq and keep Lebanon captive of the Hezbollah and in this manner be able to by pass Saudi Arabia, Israel and Egypt.

These are Obama initiatives not Bush's. Bush was an open supporter of Saudi Arabia and the UAE and since Egypt is Saudi Arabia's no.1 ally, it necessarily came into the fold and it was Saudi Arabia that formed a not so subtle alliance with Israel whereby Saudi Arabia agreed not to get nuclear weapons from Pakistan in return for Israel playing the policeman with Iran.

Obama abandon this Egypt-Saudi Arabia-Israel-UAE-Kuwait alliance in favour of a Muslim alliance that believed Erdogan and Morsi would control the Sunnis while at the same time the US could also suck up to Iran

Obama was repeatedly warned by Israel and Egypt not to get into bed with either side. There was a huge intelligence argument with Germany as well over this as Germany warned Turkey under Erdogan was not a trustworthy ally.

This is precisely why while the EU now again engages in its usual anti Israel dialogue to placate its Muslim citizens saw Germany send not only 6 state of the art submarines to Israel but now has financed 4 state of the art frigates for the Israeli navy.

This is why Greece and China have formed military alliances with Israel over their direct concern as to Turkey and Sunni extremists and why India has had a not so subtle naval alliance with Israel fearing Iranian control over vital waters necessary for its ships to travel.

Obama was over his head and so are you Dre.

[bush_cheney2004]

It is said that a photo is worth 1,000 words....Canadian foreign policy looks a lot like American foreign policy. ISIS deserves the best !

[GostHacked]

Video is worth some more... Here are the private contractors ... Blackwater, then Ze, now who knows what they are called.

Winning hearts and minds creating a stable Iraq free of terrorism. I guess this is what they call Nation Building.

[guyser]

I make no apologies for this, but I dont care if Yanks Canucks or Brits, when they pull this shite they deserve to die .

Any way they die is fine by me.

[dre]

It was Obama and Erdogan not Bush who created the disasterous ISIS that turned rogue on Obama and Erdogan.

Maybe in the whimsical fantasy world you live in.

In the real world though the Islamic State (ISI) started in 2006 in reaction to the US invasion. This group has existed for years and merely expanded into Syria when civil war broke out there.

NOBODY on earth besides you believes any of this stuff is true. NOBODY. Not one single source on earth supports any of your nonsense.

The group originated as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in 1999, which was renamed Tanzim Qaidat al-Jihad fi Bilad al-Rafidayn—commonly known as al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI)—when the group pledged allegiance to al-Qaeda in 2004. Following the 2003 invasion of Iraq, AQI took part in the Iraqi insurgency. In 2006, it joined other Sunni insurgent groups to form the Mujahideen Shura Council, which shortly afterwards proclaimed the formation of an Islamic state, naming it the Islamic State of Iraq (ISI). The ISI gained a significant presence in Al Anbar, Nineveh, Kirkuk and other areas, but around 2008, its violent methods, including suicide attacks on civilian targets and the widespread killing of prisoners, led to a backlash from Sunni Iraqis and other insurgent groups.^[a]

The group grew significantly under the leadership of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, and after entering the Syrian Civil War, it established a large presence in Sunni-majority areas of Syria within the governorates of Ar-Raqqah, Idlib, Deir ez-Zor and Aleppo.^[27]Having expanded into Syria, the group changed its name in April 2013 to the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant

All they did was expand into Syria and add an L to their name.

So go ahead and tell us, genius... How did Obama create ISI while he was a community organizer in Chicago 12 years ago? ROFLMAO.

[jbg]

Good lord what moronic tripe. Isil IS a result of american involvement in the world. And the claim they are backed by Iran is stupid even for Rue. Iran actually is the country most threatened by the establishment of a hard line Sunni state.

Everyone always forgets what brings on Western involvement. In the case of Afghanistan it was 911. In the case of Iraq it was their defiance of U.N. resolutions disarming them.

Oh, I forgot, U.N. resolutions are more a joke than serious.

[Rue]

There is of course cause and effect JBG. If nothing else the Kabbalah teaches us that, lol. That said and as you are well aware we can look at any situation in the Middle East and blame the US and blame Israel. Its easy, It requires very little imagination or way of thinking. To go further and actually look at the actual causes and effects and how they all interrelate in a complex network of sequences is another story.

On this board most anti Israelis will stop at one simple black and white cause and effect and that is US/Israel bad and to blame for all.

Look there is no doubt removing Hussein set off a leadership vacuum in Iraq. We saw when Marshall Tito died in the former Yogoslavia the same happened there. The reality is in the Middle East all political changes in government are usually violent and involve the military. Its a fact. Blaming the US of course is far easier then looking at the many factors as to why Islam when it does not separate from the State, has played a principle role in preventing democracy. Islam when it is entrenched as sharia law in these states, prevents free speech. It promotes rigid, dictatorial decrees imposed by leaders who are not questioned.

The Middle East with the exception of Israel has no democracies and we can look to Islam for that reason and like the West until society in the Middle East learns to do what the West did and distance church or religion from state, there will be no possibility of democracy.

Therein lies the irony. The anti Israelis on this board have no idea that Zionism already separated Judaism the religion from the state and this is why it can function as a democracy. They have no clue that the very creation of the US came about when it separated church from state as one of its founding fundamental principles.

In Canada we can see that the Catholic church played a predominant role in say Newfoundland and Quebec and in so doing controlled free speech through the church leaders on certain policies and when Quebec and Newfoundland evolved and their governments distanced from the church, the very nature of free speech changed and so society evolved to be more expressive of different opinions nut did not abandon its basic fundamental Judeo Christian principles either, it simply found new ways to express them.

Sure we still argue about the degree of religious belief or non religious belief we want in our social policies and laws, but that is what democracy is about and ideally in a democracy we can find away to accommodate both while finding a middle ground as well.

Ironically Zionism came out to find a way for Jews as a people, not a religion to avoid being targets of the lack of distance between church and state that could then lead to their discrimination and then organized deaths. Ironically Zionism at its very principle core basis allows non Jews the very same rights as Jews, and does not impose Jewish religious practice on Jews although of course some extreme parties in the Knesset and no doubt some Rabbias would like that.

Israel as a democracy has survived because most of its people are not fundamentally religious. They define their Jewishness as a politically national identity. In fact the definition of Jew in the Jewish religion as you know will never stop evolving. If anything thos Jews that still cling to ancient ultra orthodox Jewish principles have allowed it to prevent them from evolving. Its turned them into inbred

and isolated individuals who deny Israel's existence and shut out the majority of the world. Is it any wonder then such people are anti Zionist lol?

The anti Zionists on this board have no clue what Zionism is. Not a clue and they do not want to learn. The fact is Israel, the US, the West are evolving past certain anti democractic fundamentalist religious concepts that once enabled their governments to engage in oppression by preventing freedom of expression while most of the Muslim world has not.

The Muslim world first and foremost still has a majority of its population who can not read. Until they learn to read, they remain dependent on their governments and in particular mullahs to tell them how to think.

The war against ISIL is very much a cultural war between a society that has evolved pas fundamentalist religious control against one that embraces it.

In fact ISIL and the other Muslim extremist terrorist groups find themselves loosing control of the masses. They fear the infectious disease of the West as spread by the internet and manifested in its horrible symbols such as MacDonald's, Coke, Beyoncé's jiggling buttox.

.The spring uprisings were as much about the young in the Muslim world embracing free choice and freedom of speech and challenging the dictatorial rule of unquestioned Muslim fundamentalists as it was corruption.

Al Quaeda, ISIL are about capturing the masses and keeping them down with brutal terror and violence not free will.

You see the tripe on this board depicting Hamas as freedom fighters. Imagine, a group which embraces a constitution that calls for the violent murder of anyone who questions Hamas' interpretation of the Koran as being defined as freedom fighters as they have been on this board.

All anyone has to do is read Hamas' constitution to see it embraces its own narrow, rigid, totalitarian vision of Islam and if its citizens disagree they will be killed and that is precisely what Hamas has been doing, holding its people hostage and killing them in the same of its Islamic ideology.

The Palestinian Authority, unfortunately also boasts a similar constitution . It calls for a Sharia law state and gives the government power to impose sharia law and therefore Islam on the people. If you disagree with its interpretation of sharia law, you are its enemy.

There is unfortunately no society right now ready in the Muslim Middle East for a government like Israel's and that as Israel's does, provides Muslims the highest standard of living in all of the Middle East let alone the myriad of democratic rights Muslims have in Israel. Not one nation.

While the press remains free in Israel, not one Arab nation has free media. Oh we have Al Jazeera, which they like to claim is free but 5 minutes on it and its clear who controls it. Now mind you to m e Al Jazeera is like Fox News. Its mandate is blatant as are its bias and many media outlets in the West are of course bias. All news medias reflect a bias but at least in the West we can compare opinions and contrast them. You can not in the Middle East and when you turn on its media, the same ancient anti-Semitic canards are broadcast to the people daily in between the anti Western comments.

In the Middle East the Mukbarat exists in all their nations. Imagine a secret police modelled on the gestapo that openly operates to crush freedom of speech and not a peep from the anti Israelis about it. Not a peep/

You see JBG on this board its easy to piss on the US or Israel. We see who does it but such people will never come on this board and start a thread or acknowledge the inherent lack of democracy in the Middle East.

They will be damned if they have to admit the failure of democracy to take foot in the Middle East is directly related to embracing forms of Islam that are intolerant. They will be damned if they admit that Jews who started Israel in fact liberated themselves from this tyranny and in fact their hatred of Israel embraces and supports reactionary, terrorist, fascists and resents the fact Jews liberated themselves not just from Egypt but Christian and Muslim societies.

It just churns away in their stomachs Jews became their own Master's of destiny.

Why?

Because they envy what they think Jews have and they do not.

The irony? They have it. Its right in front of their angry little noses-its called freedom of choice, but when Jews engage in it they panic. How dare Jews choose freedom of expression through a state collective. How dare they. How dare they do not know their place as subordinates not equals.

When Christians questioned their religious structures, they evolved no different than Jews. In all Christian sects active debate is going on just as there is in the Jewish world.

As our Judeo Christian societies openly debate and engage in discourse how to reform our views but maintain basic rules of civility, the Muslim world is not yet there. It is held captive by tyrants in the name of Allah but hopefully one day they will get there, the same way we did, by questioning their leaders and challenging their beliefs.

I personally believe there are more and more Muslims who embrace the exact same values as the Judeo Christian world and like us see us all as equal not infidel or dhimmi and want to live with us in peace. We need to find a way to encourage them through dialogue to feel the power to evolve and stand with us and strive towards a progressive society that can balance basic collective and individual rights

I wish to make clear me personally, I do not think religion has to be eradicated as a cancer. I think it can play a valuable role in bringing people together. I do not see it myself as simply a source of hatred. I think it can be used as much for hatred as it can to bring people together. Its all in how we choose to exercise our freedom of speech. If we use our religions to find what we have in common not what makes us different, we find a valuable path to achieve peace and cooperation.

Terrorists like ISIL want them to believe we can never reconcile and have the same views and that there is only one way to think and believe in God.

I believe we will prevail the same way the West prevailed over Nazism and then Communism and the same way it evolved past the days when we burned witches at the stake or engaged in bloody colonial wars in the name of Jesus.

I believe it will come about when we take the basic Golden rule in all religions and simply apply it.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Rue

[bush_cheney2004]

Canadian Forces completed strike missions against ISIS.....Happy New Year !

Two Canadian fighter jets spent New Year's Eve bombing militants' positions in Iraq as part of a international airstrike campaign.

The Defence Department says that on Dec. 31 the two CF-18s struck ISIS fighting positions using precision-guided munitions.

The planes were acting in support of Iraqi security forces' group operations west of Fallujah.

[GostHacked]

Everyone always forgets what brings on Western involvement. In the case of Afghanistan it was 911. In the case of Iraq it was their defiance of U.N. resolutions disarming them.

Oh, I forgot, U.N. resolutions are more a joke than serious.

Everyone also forgets why 9/11 happened. Blowback from supporting the Muhajedeen against the Soviets. The US created Al-Queda which is not even contested by government officials.

[eyeball]

Everyone always forgets what brings on Western involvement.

What are you taking about, everyone knows it was the Cold War. The part you guys conveniently/deliberately edit out is why/how the disgraceful way that involvement was conducted led to 9/11.

You're side is simply pissed off at anyone who refuses to forget the same things you forget and why they refuse to forget them.

You don't have a freaking clue what I'm talking about do you? How convenient.