It is Immoral to not abort a Downs Syndrome Foetus?

Argus · August 29, 2014

Richard Dawkins caused a bit of a stir recently when he suggsted it was immoral to not abort a downs syndrome foetus before it was born. Those with Downs Syndrome, it is argued, are a huge economic drain on society, and an anvil, dragging their parents lives down with high-level, never ending needs and stress and no chance of ever leading independant lives. One could make the same suggestion regading other foetuses which are known to be severely damaged prior to birth. "Abort it and try again" he said

Immoral? This is a difficult suggestion, but not untenable depending on how severely disabled the foetus is. If it's known it will reqire enormous state support throghout its life then it could be argued it's selfish to have the child. I suppose it would also depend on how severely disabled it is, as to whether it could ever lead a truly enjoyable life. Some children are born so severaly brain damaged they are barely aware of te world around them. Pesonally, I see no purpose in bringing such disabled children into existence.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/aug/21/richard-dawkins-immoral-not-to-abort-a-downs-syndrome-foetus

Edited August 29, 2014 by Argus

Shady · August 30, 2014

I think it's the opposite. I think it's immoral to kill an unborn baby because of Down's syndrome. At least after a certain point in its development.

August 30, 2014

I think it's entirely up to the parents. It would not be immoral (to me, that is) to abort a foetus for any reason. I guess that's what choice is.

I would not think it immoral for parents to keep it if they choose to.

Wilber · August 30, 2014

Only someone who believes Down's syndrome kids have no quality of life would consider suggesting thst to a parent. Basically he wants to put a dollar value on someone elses child.

WestCoastRunner · August 30, 2014

. Pesonally, I see no purpose in bringing such disabled children into existence.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/aug/21/richard-dawkins-immoral-not-to-abort-a-downs-syndrome-foetus

Your last statement speaks volumes about you personally. 'such disabled children' is an abhorrent statement. How can you define such children as 'disabled'. Is there a rule book you are referring to? There are children with downs syndrome who do lead independent lives. I really don't understand your post or your position. What do you mean by 'such disabled children' and where do YOU draw the line when it comes to disabled. Who has the authority to say who is disabled and who is not?

On Guard for Thee · August 30, 2014

First of all I will state I am a pro choice guy. Second of all I will quickly relate a personal story. I rode a school bus all the way through public and high school. During my last 2 years of high school the brother of a girl I had known and shared a classroom with a long time showed up on the bus. He had downs syndrome. He was travelling to a new school opened in town for people with such affliction. He was roughly the same age as the rest of us senior kids who populated the back end of that bus. He migrated of his own accord to the back of that bus, even though his sister worried over him and had a sense of duty to watch over him and protect him from whatever kind of abuse she worried the big boys might bestow upon him. Something akin to the opposite of that happenned. He was accepted, respected, and protected.oe be it to the guy who messed with Greg. Yeah he was different. He looked a bit different and he talked a bit funny. He had an amazing sense of humor believe it or not and he was a loyal friend. When I finished school I moved and didn't see him again. It was tough saying goodbye to him. Yes I'm sure he cost the taxpayer some money. But then so did I. We both attended publicly funded schools after all. I have no idea whatever became of him but all these years later I still like to reflect and I like to cherish the lessons I feel I learned in that time. All in all I'm glad he wasn't aborted.

BubberMiley · August 30, 2014

I think it's the opposite. I think it's immoral to kill an unborn baby because of Down's syndrome. At least after a certain point in its development.

I think it would be immoral for you to have that position without offering to support and raise the child.

WestCoastRunner · August 30, 2014

At least after a certain point in its development.

Sounds very hypocritical of your stance on abortion.

Shady · August 30, 2014

I think it would be immoral for you to have that position without offering to support and raise the child.

My supporting or not supporting said child has nothing to do with the immorality of killing him/her because of a birth defect.

Shady · August 30, 2014

Sounds very hypocritical of your stance on abortion.

No, it's very inline with my stance on abortion.

BubberMiley · August 30, 2014

My supporting or not supporting said child has nothing to do with the immorality of killing him/her because of a birth defect.

The mother's decision to abort the foetus has nothing to do with the immorality of demanding she keep it without offering support.

Shady · August 30, 2014

The mother's decision to abort the foetus has nothing to do with the immorality of demanding she keep it without offering support.

If one can't support it, it's called adoption. But murder because of financial circumstances, or genetic circumstances is completely immoral. Somebody else will be happy to take care of it. In fact, there's waiting lists.

Shady · August 30, 2014

A person's right to life isn't dependant on the circumstances said person is to be born in.

On Guard for Thee · August 30, 2014

If one can't support it, it's called adoption. But murder because of financial circumstances, or genetic circumstances is completely immoral. Somebody else will be happy to take care of it. In fact, there's waiting lists.

You don't know the difference between abortion and murder?

cybercoma · August 30, 2014

[OP Stuff]

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/aug/21/richard-dawkins-immoral-not-to-abort-a-downs-syndrome-foetus

I don't know about the morality of it all, but as a personal decision, I don't think I could ever be prepared enough to care for a child with Down's Syndrome. I think this is a personal decision that people have to choose for themselves. Dawkins is completely over the line making an argument about what people "should" do. Not even pro-choice activists say women should have abortions; they argue that it's a personal matter and an individual choice.

Edited August 30, 2014 by cybercoma

cybercoma · August 30, 2014

If one can't support it, it's called adoption.

How many kids are you planning on adopting? If it's so important to you that people go the adoption route, then I imagine it's important for you to ensure as many of those kids are adopted as possible.

cybercoma · August 30, 2014

A person's right to life isn't dependant on the circumstances said person is to be born in.

It's only ok to kill people after they're born, right? No problem executing criminals and bombing innocent Palestinians. Yet, women should be forced against their will to incubate fetuses they don't want to carry. There's just so much hypocrisy in every one of your arguments.

Argus · August 30, 2014

Your last statement speaks volumes about you personally. 'such disabled children' is an abhorrent statement. How can you define such children as 'disabled'. Is there a rule book you are referring to? There are children with downs syndrome who do lead independent lives. I really don't understand your post or your position. What do you mean by 'such disabled children' and where do YOU draw the line when it comes to disabled. Who has the authority to say who is disabled and who is not?

I wasn't aware the politically correct had decided to ban the term 'disabled'. Have you arrived at a more acceptable term you want everyone to use?

There are babies born who are both deaf and blind. There are babies born with virtually no functioning brain. There are babies born which doctors know will only live a few years, much of it in hospitals in pain. I was referring to this group. As to those with downs syndrome I wouldn't doubt that many have the ability to have a somewhat enjoyable life - as a child. The average IQ of a downs syndrome adult is 50, which is the equivilent of an 8 or 9 year old (wiki) so there's no question of such people ever being capable of supporting themselves. A few have milder cases, though, but pretty much all require extensive financial support, and usually from the community since the parents cannot afford it themselves.

Argus · August 30, 2014

A person's right to life isn't dependant on the circumstances said person is to be born in.

Really? If I offer you a new life, but you'll be born without hearing or eyes, would you take it?

Hal 9000 · August 30, 2014

Most Down Syndrome people live a happy life. They can have goals and experiences and can be quite enjoyable to be around. They can have all the emotions of a typical person (albeit diminished). They do have hearing and they do have eyes.

There are many worse disabilities than Down Syndrome.

Dawkins is the one that should be aborted.

dre · August 30, 2014

Up to the parents... not internet forum hacks.

dre · August 30, 2014

Dawkins is the one that should be aborted.

Hmmmm. Hes in about the 175th trimester. Thats a little "late term" for me.

Argus · August 30, 2014

Up to the parents... not internet forum hacks.

There is the question of the enormous cost to the state vs little likelihood of any kind of contribution from the downs syndrome children. It's not like the parents are going to be able to afford to look after these kids themselves.

Big Guy · August 30, 2014

I don't know about the morality of it all, but as a personal decision, I don't think I could ever be prepared enough to care for a child with Down's Syndrome. I think this is a personal decision that people have to choose for themselves. Dawkins is completely over the line making an argument about what people "should" do. Not even pro-choice activists say women should have abortions; they argue that it's a personal matter and an individual choice.

I agree. I believe there are two different issues here; One is the whole question of the legitimacy of abortions and the secondary one of the validity of the reasons for the abortion.

If you believe that life begins at birth, as I do, then the concept of an abortion can be looked at as an optional surgical procedure. I know and respect that others have different views.

If you accept that position then the next question is of what should be an acceptable reason for the abortion.

If you accept that it is the choice of the parents as to carry the child to term, as I do, then you have to leave the decision to the parents. Each set of parents will have their own boundaries and I am not one to judge their choices. As we know, abortions take place because of rape, incest, gender selection, physical deformity, financial impact etc. I believe that each individual has a view based on "what would I do".. Well, we are all different and would therefore act differently and have a different condition which would trigger supporting abortion (if any).

The trigger for that decision may be the knowledge that the child would have Downs Syndrome if allowed to term. I believe that the trigger is the purview of the parent(s).

WestCoastRunner · August 30, 2014

Some facts about Down Syndrome to dispel some long lingering myths:

Around 500 Down Syndrome babies are born in Canada annually
Life expectancy has increased dramatically in recent years, with the average life expectancy approaching that of peers without Down syndrome
Most people with Down syndrome have cognitive delays that are mild to moderate. Children fully participate in public and private educational programs. Educators and researchers are still discovering the full educational potential of people with Down syndrome
They are active participants in the educational, vocational, social, and recreational activities of the community. They are integrated into the regular education system and take part in sports, camping, music, art programs and all the other activities of their communities.They are valued members of their families and their communities, contributing to society in a variety of ways
They are included in regular academic classrooms in schools across the country. They are integrated into specific courses, while in other situations students are fully included in the regular classroom for all subjects. The current trend in education is for full inclusion in the social and educational life of the community. Increasingly, they graduate from high school with regular diplomas, participate in post-secondary academic and college experiences and, in some cases, receive college degrees.
They are being employed by banks, corporations, nursing homes, hotels and restaurants. They work in the music and entertainment industry, in clerical positions, childcare, the sports field and in the computer industry to name a few.
People with Down syndrome socialize and have meaningful friendships. Some choose to date, form ongoing relationships and marry
Research is making great strides. Scientists now feel strongly that it will be possible to improve, correct or prevent many of the problems associated with Down syndrome in the future.