Holocaust survivors condemn Israel for 'Gaza massacre,'

[marcus]

The biggest reason why Zionism will fail is because more and more Jews from around the world are no longer able to stay silent as they cannot relate to Zionism's racist ideology. More and more Jews are speaking out and saying, "Not in our name."

Haaretz: "Hundreds of Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors have signed a letter, published as an advertisement in Saturday's New York Times, condemning "the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza" and calling for a complete boycott of Israel . . . "we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel’s abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel’s wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water."

Link

Edited August 25, 2014 by marcus

[Guest]

I would love to ask those survivors if the allied troops that liberated them from the camps should perhaps have stayed in England on June 06, 1944 instead of invading France, in order to avoid civilian casualties.

[marcus]

Because Israel is liberating...

Should ridiculous analogies be replied to? You should ask yourself that question.

Those who use ridiculous analogies - use backdoor ------->

[bush_cheney2004]

Holocaust survivors (and non survivors) directly contributed to the State of Israel in direct support of "Zionists" objectives and their own post WW2 self interest(s), including land/settlements:

1. The Holocaust motivated large numbers of immigrants to move to the new country, providing the necessary population.

2. The Holocaust enabled Israel to pressure Germany into supplying the economic base necessary to build infrastructure and support those immigrants

3. The Holocaust swayed world opinion so that the United Nations approved the State of Israel in 1948.

....The establishment of the State of Israel was a great accomplishment for the Jewish people. After being exiled for 2000 years, Israel was finally a home again for Jews all over the world. It would be nice to say that the Zionist organization and the desire of the Jewish people were enough to create Israel, but realistically, Israel needed outside help. The Holocaust provided resources for Israel, which helped Israel survive for over half a century.

http://www.history.ucsb.edu/projects/holocaust/Research/Proseminar/tomerkleinman.htm

Edited August 25, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

....The establishment of the State of Israel was a great accomplishment for the Jewish people. After being exiled for 2000 years, Israel was finally a home again for Jews all over the world. It would be nice to say that the Zionist organization and the desire of the Jewish people were enough to create Israel, but realistically, Israel needed outside help. The Holocaust provided resources for Israel, which helped Israel survive for over half a century.

A similar token will inevitably provide the Palestinians in much the same fashion.

[bush_cheney2004]

A similar token will inevitably provide the Palestinians in much the same fashion.

Nah...they prefer to waste their time and resources building rockets and terror tunnels.

[Keepitsimple]

The biggest reason why Zionism will fail is because more and more Jews from around the world are no longer able to stay silent as they cannot relate to Zionism's racist ideology. More and more Jews are speaking out and saying, "Not in our name."

Haaretz: "Hundreds of Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors have signed a letter, published as an advertisement in Saturday's New York Times, condemning "the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza" and calling for a complete boycott of Israel . . . "we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel’s abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel’s wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water."

Link

If only the Arab world allowed such freedom of thought and expression......but alas, any such outburst would be met with a quick - but ugly execution. Your post exemplifies their tactics - to use Western culture's open-ness and freedom of speech and thought - against us......but hey, with the heinous actions of ISIS and Hamas, people are finally starting to realize that these guys really are very, very bad.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[waldo]

Your post exemplifies their tactics - to use Western culture's open-ness and freedom of speech and thought - against us

huh! Way to twist the OP and the letter from holocaust survivors/descendants... while you manage not to comment about the actual content of the letter itself.

"Genocide begins with the silence of the world," the letter reads.

The letter ends with a call to bring the blockade of Gaza to an immediate end, and for a full boycott of Israel. "Never again must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!," the letter concludes.

[Keepitsimple]

huh! Way to twist the OP and the letter from holocaust survivors/descendants... while you manage not to comment about the actual content of the letter itself.

The OP as you call it - is from an anti-Zionist website that refers to a "press release". You'd have to sort through quite a few holocaust survivors to find some who would be gullible enough to relinquish Israel to the Palestinians. I'd prefer to wait and let the media do their due-diligence (hopefully) as to the motivation and accuracy of these signatories. To my knowledge, it has not yet appeared in any reputable media outlet.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[Guest]

Because Israel is liberating...

Should ridiculous analogies be replied to? You should ask yourself that question.

Those who use ridiculous analogies - use backdoor ------->

The liberation was incidental to goal of defeating Germany, but it wouldn't have happened without civilian casualties. The same as defeating Hamas won't. Backdoor for the deliberately obtuse.------------>

[waldo]

civilian casualties <> collateral damage - no biggee!

[Guest]

Big, small, inevitable. Names are just names.

[waldo]

The OP as you call it - is from an anti-Zionist website that refers to a "press release". You'd have to sort through quite a few holocaust survivors to find some who would be gullible enough to relinquish Israel to the Palestinians. I'd prefer to wait and let the media do their due-diligence (hopefully) as to the motivation and accuracy of these signatories. To my knowledge, it has not yet appeared in any reputable media outlet.

the Opening Post (OP)... as it is called. You don' appear to distinguish the letter proper from the organization that extended upon the letter. The coverage of the letter is fairly wide (BBC, Independent, Daily Kos, etc....), but your "reputable" is clearly relative. Given its profile, I expect the NYT wouldn't have printed (the ad) without applying some degree of scrutiny to it. In any case, this NYT Opinion piece parallels the nature/intent of the letter:

The End of Liberal Zionism - Israel’s Move to the Right Challenges Diaspora Jews

Liberal Zionists are at a crossroads. The original tradition of combining Zionism and liberalism — which meant ending the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, supporting a Palestinian state as well as a Jewish state with a permanent Jewish majority, and standing behind Israel when it was threatened — was well intentioned. But everything liberal Zionists stand for is now in doubt.

The decision of Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, to launch a military campaign against Hamas in Gaza has cost the lives, to date, of 64 soldiers and three civilians on the Israeli side, and nearly 2,000 Palestinians, the majority of whom were civilians.

But it’s not just Gaza, and the latest episode of “shock and awe” militarism. The romantic Zionist ideal, to which Jewish liberals — and I was one, once — subscribed for so many decades, has been tarnished by the reality of modern Israel. The attacks on freedom of speech and human rights organizations in Israel, the land-grabbing settler movement, a growing strain of anti-Arab and anti-immigrant racism, extremist politics, and a powerful, intolerant religious right — this mixture has pushed liberal Zionism to the brink.

Along with many experts, most dissenting groups have long thought that the two-state solution was dead. The collapse of the peace talks being brokered by the American secretary of state, John Kerry, came as no surprise. Then, on July 11, Mr. Netanyahu definitively rejected any possibility of establishing an independent Palestinian state. The Gaza conflict meant, he said, that “there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan” (meaning the West Bank).

Liberal Zionists must now face the reality that the dissenters have recognized for years: A de facto single state already exists; in it, rights for Jews are guaranteed while rights for Palestinians are curtailed. Since liberal Zionists can’t countenance anything but two states, this situation leaves them high and dry.

[waldo]

Big, small, inevitable. Names are just names.

why... how cavalier of you!

[Shady]

This is as sleezy as it gets. The OP and his ilk are hiding behind some holocaust survivors in an effort to promote their anti-Israel positions.

[Jim Brown]

The Holocaust survivors have seen enough death, religious hate and war in their time. Good for them for standing up for others, and what is right.

[Rue]

Waldo before you try support this crap that poses as discourse on Israel think what it is. Its the use of the holocaust to try deny the survivors of the holocust the right to exist as a collective. Israel came about because of Jews forced to take a stand, an existential stand of survival.

Where were you? Where were you the lasy 4,000 years as Christian and Muslim nations treated us as inferior, would not allow us to own land, continually committed mass murder on us? Where were you? You want to talk about cavalier? You are the epitome of it trying to justify the use of holocaust survivors ass some automatic proof that Israel should not exist.

Can I spell it out any clearer. The person who started this thread is simply on this thread to incite hatred against any Jew who chooses to live in a collective state that is Jewish. His motive now recycled over and over again on this forum and I personally suspect through many different names on the forum states the same trite hatred using reverse Nazism to insult all Jews.

You want to join in with it. Go on,

The exercise is nothing more than negative stereotyping.It reflects the lowest of intelligence. It assumes if a holocaust survivor criticize Israeli state policies or for that matter might be against the notion of an Israeli state, then automatically we suspend any other reasoning and say-well it must be true.

Yah we get it. If a Jew criticizes the existence of the state of Israel it must automatically be true. Why? Do you even know when you chime in?

Well?

You even know any holocaust survivors?

You even know what happened to Jews after WW2 and how the world abandon them? Well? Where were you?

Where were you when Elenor Roosevelt was the only gentile who dared question the UN and her own country as they turned their back on displaced Jews? Where were you?

Where were you when the Arab League threw out 900,000 Jews? Where were you when the Felashies of Ethiopia had to flee?

Where are you when there is no differentiation made between Jews and Israeli Jews by people like "Marcus" when they claim to discuss Israel?

Why is it Israel is the only nation in the world that dominates discussions on the forum as to its right to exist as a Jewish state.

Is this person who started the thread concerned as to any Sharia law state and what they are doing? Not a peep.

Will this person even use the word Hamas let alone ISIS or Muslim Brotherhood on this forum and acknowledge what is going on in Sharia law nations?

Will he discuss in a balanced debate that there are also Muslims who denounce Sharia law nations?

Of course not.

Now what is your point coming on this thread.. to chime in that Israel should not exist..to ridicule the memory of holocaust survivors who fled to Israel and all the Jew.

You think he speaks for me or any other Jew?

Go on finish your support of this idiotic thread.

Tell me as a Liberal Jew how I have turned on Netanyahu and Israel. Please tell me.

This Liberal Jew strongly supports the actions of Netanyahu to date. This Liberal Jew still reaches out to non violent Muslims and Palestinians searching for peace despite this war. This Liberal Jew says to you and the person who started this thread to incite and bait and spread hatred yet again against Jews using Israel as the pretense that you are done. MOVE ON and do not dare speak about me or any other JEW.. You do not know what we feel, what we think.

That said BC Sapper and Bush Chaney do. They do because they use the same standard with us as they do themselves. Unlike you and the person who started this thread they don't try use the holocaust as an opportunity to suggest what Israel is doing is related to it.

[Rue]

Oh now its "Jim Brown".

How clever.

You speak for holocaust survivors. You know how they feel and think.

Lol, who next John Black, Bart Purple, Buck Green?

Regards

Peter Pimento

Edited August 25, 2014 by Rue

[Black Dog]

This is as sleezy as it gets. The OP and his ilk are hiding behind some holocaust survivors in an effort to promote their anti-Israel positions.

So what's the actual Holocaust survivors' excuse?

[BubberMiley]

Yah we get it. If a Jew criticizes the existence of the state of Israel it must automatically be true. Why? Do you even know when you chime in?

Nobody is criticizing the existence of the state of Israel. That's just a ham-handed attempt to shut down criticism of Israel's aggression. As a result, your whole convoluted argument falls apart. Care to try again?

[waldo]

This is as sleezy as it gets. The OP and his ilk are hiding behind some holocaust survivors in an effort to promote their anti-Israel positions.

regardless of your failed interpretations, it's always heartening to think that... perhaps... I have met the measure of your "ilk" attachment!

[waldo]

Waldo before you try support this crap that poses as discourse on Israel think what it is. Its the use of the holocaust to try deny the survivors of the holocust the right to exist as a collective. Israel came about because of Jews forced to take a stand, an existential stand of survival.

Where were you? Where were you the lasy 4,000 years as Christian and Muslim nations treated us as inferior, would not allow us to own land, continually committed mass murder on us? Where were you? You want to talk about cavalier? You are the epitome of it trying to justify the use of holocaust survivors ass some automatic proof that Israel should not exist.

.

.

This Liberal Jew strongly supports the actions of Netanyahu to date. This Liberal Jew still reaches out to non violent Muslims and Palestinians searching for peace despite this war. This Liberal Jew says to you and the person who started this thread to incite and bait and spread hatred yet again against Jews using Israel as the pretense that you are done. MOVE ON and do not dare speak about me or any other JEW.. You do not know what we feel, what we think.

That said BC Sapper and Bush Chaney do. They do because they use the same standard with us as they do themselves. Unlike you and the person who started this thread they don't try use the holocaust as an opportunity to suggest what Israel is doing is related to it.

one can show/present empathy with the plight of innocent Palestinian civilians killed without you interpreting that as, as you said/implied, "inciting hatred against any Jew who chooses to live in a collective state that is Jewish"... without you interpreting that as a basis for, as you said/implied, "some automatic proof that Israel should not exist"

[Rue]

I do agree with your last statement Waldo. I have read many on this forum that did just that and so I did not criticize them or challenge them as I have the words on this thread from some including you for the reasons I stated.

[Rue]

Blubber the holocaust survivors being quoted are in fact against the state of Israel's existence and started the letter precisely for that reason.

Secondly if we assume that any Jew who is against Israel's existence is automaticallymore credible, then this must hold true of Muslims and so any Muslim who supports Sharia Law, Muslim states, Hamas and terrrorism ishas no credibility.

Also any Catholic who supports the right of the Catholic church to have their own state are not credible and credible and Anglicans who define their head as the Queen of England and their Church as being the Church of England have no credibility.

Yah right. As if we will hear that on this forum.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Rue

[dre]

I would love to ask those survivors if the allied troops that liberated them from the camps should perhaps have stayed in England on June 06, 1944 instead of invading France, in order to avoid civilian casualties.