Ferguson unrest

[Argus]

I haven't been following this story very much, so I'm unclear on the details. How far away from the cop was Brown when he was shot?

Initially, he had his hands on the gun trying to wrestle it from the cop when his hand was shot. Thereafter, he ran, and the cop chased him, then he stopped and came back. He got over a hundred feet away at one point but since none of the bullets hit him in the back we can figure the distance was considerably less since he was coming back. Witnesses put the shooting at from 50 feet to 4 feet away. The cop says he ordered him to stop and get on the ground but he kept coming.

[Shady]

Moving towards ≠ "charging"

Doesn't matter. Even if somebody was just walking. If you're told to stop, and you keep walking toward a police officer, there could be problems.

[Smallc]

Not everything is about racism but, in the States at least, just about everything is about race. Especially when you're talking about a white cop on a white police force shooting a black man in a black neighbourhood.

In this case it seems, only because people want to make it so.

[Black Dog]

Perhaps you could demonstrate in what way that influenced what happened on that street? Would the cop not have told him and his buddy to stop walking in the middle of the road if they were White? Would he not have gone back after recognizing that Brown fit the description of the guy who had just done the strongarm robbery at the corner store?

That's not why he went back. He went back after Brown swore at him. Even if you buy that Wilson was aware of the robbery (despite initial statements from officials that he was not), the reason he went back was because Brown lipped him off.

If race impacted this at all I think it was in the initial interaction between them when Wilson backed up and blocked the road. Honestly, my perception of Brown from watching that video and hearing his actions described was of a big, arrogant guy who thought he could do whatever he wanted because of his size. I can see him being angry when the cop first told him to get out of the street as he passed by (he didn't) and then stopped, backed up and blocked his path. There are strong elements of machismo in the Black community, of guys being willing to fight and kill because they feel someone is 'disrespecting' them. Add in a strong undercurrent of not liking white people, especially white cops, and racism might have been in play - Brown's racism.

Or you could look at it as a white cop getting cursed at by a black kid and wanting to flex his authority to show him who's boss.

[Black Dog]

In this case it seems, only because people want to make it so.

Why does it seem that way?

[cybercoma]

I'm sorry if my pointing out reality is making it more difficult for you to keep the self-righteousness flowing in your insulated little world.

"Reality"

I guess saying it to you a hundred times doesn't make it sink into that thick skull. Your experiences are not others' reality.

Edited November 26, 2014 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Moving towards ≠ "charging"

If you'er going to run from the cops, I guess you better keep running because if you realize that what you're doing is stupid and turn around to go back, they will kill you and people like Argus will come on message boards and justify it.

Unless you're white.

[cybercoma]

Perhaps you could demonstrate in what way that influenced what happened on that street? Would the cop not have told him and his buddy to stop walking in the middle of the road if they were White? Would he not have gone back after recognizing that Brown fit the description of the guy who had just done the strongarm robbery at the corner store?

If race impacted this at all I think it was in the initial interaction between them when Wilson backed up and blocked the road. Honestly, my perception of Brown from watching that video and hearing his actions described was of a big, arrogant guy who thought he could do whatever he wanted because of his size. I can see him being angry when the cop first told him to get out of the street as he passed by (he didn't) and then stopped, backed up and blocked his path. There are strong elements of machismo in the Black community, of guys being willing to fight and kill because they feel someone is 'disrespecting' them. Add in a strong undercurrent of not liking white people, especially white cops, and racism might have been in play - Brown's racism.

You cannot disconnect racism from personal interactions, can you? Nobody is talking about prejudice. We're talking about institutional and systemic racism. Is this really that hard to understand? If you don't know what it is, then look it up.

[cybercoma]

Why does it seem that way?

The same can be said the other way. It only seems like it's not racism because people want to whitewash the whole thing. It's meaningless drivel.

[Smallc]

You cannot disconnect racism from personal interactions, can you? Nobody is talking about prejudice. We're talking about institutional and systemic racism. Is this really that hard to understand? If you don't know what it is, then look it up.

A lot of us really don't buy that argument.

[cybercoma]

The National Bar Association goes on record to say that the grand jury's decision not to indict Wilson was wrong.

http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b493e6c4d31beda32fdaf8e2d&id=73514e334b

[cybercoma]

But what does the National Bar Association know about the law, right?

[bush_cheney2004]

The grand jury didn't buy it either. Attack a cop...pay the price....regardless of race. Gosh...it even happens in Canada !

[cybercoma]

The grand jury didn't buy it either. Attack a cop...pay the price....regardless of race. Gosh...it even happens in Canada !

Except cops are FAR more likely to shoot black people in the US than anyone of any other race. So like the black civil rights lawyer said earlier, the only thing this decision does is make it open season on black men for cops across the US.

[Shady]

But what does the National Bar Association know about the law, right?

Where they present during the presentation of the evidence over the last few months?

[bush_cheney2004]

Except cops are FAR more likely to shoot black people in the US than anyone of any other race. So like the black civil rights lawyer said earlier, the only thing this decision does is make it open season on black men for cops across the US.

"Black people" are also FAR more likely to shoot "black people".....so what's your point ? Why do they violate the civil rights of "black people".

[cybercoma]

Where they present during the presentation of the evidence over the last few months?

Did they not have access to all of the evidence, since the prosecutor posted it online?

[cybercoma]

"Black people" are also FAR more likely to shoot "black people".....so what's your point ? Why do they violate the civil rights of "black people".

And white people are far more likely to shoot white people. What's your point?

[bush_cheney2004]

And white people are far more likely to shoot white people. What's your point?

Good....then there is no race based argument in this case. Cops shoot perps all the time. We pay them to do so when necessary.

[Shady]

Did they not have access to all of the evidence, since the prosecutor posted it online?

And they've reviewed all 3 months worth in a day?

[dre]

I agree it is pathetic to insinuate things that you have no proof of and then attack others for asking you for said proof...that you don't have.

I dont think things were left out. Quite the opposite.

In any case the prosecutors handling of this case was very strange according to every single legal analysis I have seen. Normally a prosecutor recommends charges to the panel, then he submits evidence to support those charges. In this case he just gave them a data dump and didnt recommend anything. This is pretty much unheard of... if the prosecutor didnt believe that charges were warranted then he should not have convened a grand jury in the first place... if he did he should have aggressively went after the charges he sought and presented only evidence to support them.

In generally if the prosecutor wants charges he gets them...

U.S. attorneys prosecuted 162,000 federal cases in 2010, the most recent year for which we have data. Grand juries declined to return an indictment in 11 of them.

He comes across as a coward that wanted to let this cop off the hook without it having that appearance. Either that or he doesnt know what a grand jury is and how its supposed to work. He intentionally made an uncompelling case to the grand jury.

Not to mention the idiotic way he chose to announce the decision.

This whole thing was horribly mishandled. Local prosecutors are basically in a partnership with the police: They are on the same team. In cases like this one a special prosecutor should be appointed.

This does not mean I think that Wilson is guilty. Even if there HAD been a special prosecutor and an indictment I dont believe Wilson would have been convicted on any of the more serious counts. And we have no way of knowing if this was an unnecessary "stitch-up", or just a case of gross incompetence on the part of authorities.

Edited November 26, 2014 by dre

[sharkman]

Whoops, double post.

Edited November 26, 2014 by sharkman

[sharkman]

If you'er going to run from the cops, I guess you better keep running because if you realize that what you're doing is stupid and turn around to go back, they will kill you and people like Argus will come on message boards and justify it.

Unless you're white.

Well, if you're instructed by a cop to get out of the middle of the road, but instead assault him and grab his gun while he's still in his car, get shot in the arm in the process, then take off running, to only turn and charge the cop that you've assaulted, who's telling you to lay down on the ground as you're under arrest. If you're stupid enough to do all that, then you are stupid enough to get shot to death. Brown could have stopped the process AT ANY POINT BY SUBMITTING TO THE COP AND GETTING ON THE GROUND.

Like I keep saying, if anyone punches a cop while in his car and grabs/hold his gun in the process, they deserve whatever they end up getting. Morons get shot every day, unfortunately.

Edited November 26, 2014 by sharkman

[Remiel]

Black people do not talks oaths not to shoot black people. White people do not take oaths not to shoot white people. Cops do in fact take oaths to "serve and protect" , at least they used to, and I am pretty sure they are not qualified as "serve and protect white people, and maybe yellow people, but not black, brown, or red people" . If cops are disproportionately shooting black people then the cops have a problem, because they are their oaths imply treating people equally.

[bush_cheney2004]

Cops do not take oaths to not shoot "black people", especially when assaulted. Same circumstances again ?....shoot 'em.