Enhanced Interrogation Techniques

[Bonam]

I think torture should only be used in very narrow circumstances, specifically:

- There is an active specific terrorist threat that poses imminent danger to the lives of many civilians

- The individual in question is considered to be very likely to have information vital to avert or counteract the threat

- There is no other reasonable way of obtaining the information in time

In this combination of circumstances, it would be more unethical to let innocents die than to use torture. Essentially, the "ticking timebomb" scenario, and nothing else.

Torture should not be used simply to find out what someone generally knows, to try to get evidence to convict someone or to reveal names of people, to get information on accomplices, etc, outside of the above scenario.

[Big Guy]

If we agree with EIT when we deem it "appropriate" to use, then do we accept it when another country uses it on a Canadian when they deem it "appropriate"?

Why restrict it to dealing with "terrorists"? Why not use it on criminals to get information on other criminals? If we knew a person had information on a serial killer would it be OK to use it then?

If we choose to water board a suspect to save lives, what about pulling nails off, sticking ice picks into eyeballs or electric connections to genitals? If the end justifies the means then why limit the means?

[AngusThermopyle]

Just a quick note regarding the opening post. Shidane Arone was beaten to death and burned with cigarettes by one person, Matchee. He was not roasted as stated. Another person was present (forget his name at the moment. This person took pictures which were later used in this case. As I said, just a quick note of correction to an erroneous statement.

[Argus]

The Japanese police have been routinely using torture for decades. That's one of the reasons almost criminal suspects confess rather than electing trials.

It seems to me that calling EIT torture demeans those who suffered from real torture. Certainly it's unpleasant and scary and traumatizing, but I'd put it on a lower level of outrage than say shoving a heated poker up someone's anus or scooping their eyeballs out with sharpened spoons.

I think if anything Canada has a tendency to go too far in the other direction. Not only do we not allow physical coercion, but the courts are even leery of the authorities being impolite, or trying to trick criminals. Last week the Supreme Court decided it was unfair for the RCMP to fool a murderer into confessing he had drowned his daughters, and set him free. They hadn't forced him to confess. They'd simply run a scam to convince him he was around like-minded violent men.

[On Guard for Thee]

The Japanese police have been routinely using torture for decades. That's one of the reasons almost criminal suspects confess rather than electing trials.

It seems to me that calling EIT torture demeans those who suffered from real torture. Certainly it's unpleasant and scary and traumatizing, but I'd put it on a lower level of outrage than say shoving a heated poker up someone's anus or scooping their eyeballs out with sharpened spoons.

I think if anything Canada has a tendency to go too far in the other direction. Not only do we not allow physical coercion, but the courts are even leery of the authorities being impolite, or trying to trick criminals. Last week the Supreme Court decided it was unfair for the RCMP to fool a murderer into confessing he had drowned his daughters, and set him free. They hadn't forced him to confess. They'd simply run a scam to convince him he was around like-minded violent men.

Got your facts a tad skewed again. They didn't exactly set him free, they overturned the conviction based on a questionable confession and they didn't say they couldn't use the "Mr. Big" technique but had to modify it. Once again as with torture, if you beat crap out of someone, what you get is crap, and the beating doesn't have to be done with sticks and stones necessarily.

[On Guard for Thee]

The Japanese police have been routinely using torture for decades. That's one of the reasons almost criminal suspects confess rather than electing trials.

It seems to me that calling EIT torture demeans those who suffered from real torture. Certainly it's unpleasant and scary and traumatizing, but I'd put it on a lower level of outrage than say shoving a heated poker up someone's anus or scooping their eyeballs out with sharpened spoons.

I think if anything Canada has a tendency to go too far in the other direction. Not only do we not allow physical coercion, but the courts are even leery of the authorities being impolite, or trying to trick criminals. Last week the Supreme Court decided it was unfair for the RCMP to fool a murderer into confessing he had drowned his daughters, and set him free. They hadn't forced him to confess. They'd simply run a scam to convince him he was around like-minded violent men.

Got your facts a tad skewed again. They didn't exactly set him free, they overturned the conviction based on a questionable confession and they didn't say they couldn't use the "Mr. Big" technique but had to modify it. Once again as with torture, if you beat crap out of someone, what you get is crap, and the beating doesn't have to be done with sticks and stones necessarily

And I forgot to add, ordered a new trial.

[The_Squid]

Anyone who thinks torture is an effective technique, whether there is a "ticking time bomb" or not, has watched too much 24, or some such show.

TV dramas are not an effective research tool.

Edited August 5, 2014 by The_Squid

[The_Squid]

On Guard For Thee - please learn to use the quote feature. Your posts are very annoying when it can't be discerned whether you're quoting a previous post or not...

[On Guard for Thee]

On Guard For Thee - please learn to use the quote feature. Your posts are very annoying when it can't be discerned whether you're quoting a previous post or not.

I know how to use it. For some reason it is not working correctly. Can't figure out why yet.

[The_Squid]

The Japanese police have been routinely using torture for decades. That's one of the reasons almost criminal suspects confess rather than electing trials.

And court rulings in Japan have overturned convictions because confessions just weren't true. It is not an effective technique and the Japanese system is deeply flawed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/11/world/asia/11japan.html?pagewanted=all

[Big Guy]

Just a quick note regarding the opening post. Shidane Arone was beaten to death and burned with cigarettes by one person, Matchee. He was not roasted as stated. Another person was present (forget his name at the moment. This person took pictures which were later used in this case. As I said, just a quick note of correction to an erroneous statement.

I did not want to bring up that outrageous part of the history of the Canadian Airborne Regiment. It was an example of what happens when a rogue unit decides that the end justifies the means in a war zone. It may be appropriate to review it here;

"On March 16, 1993, Captain Michael Sox found Shidane Abukar Arone hiding in a portable toilet in an abandoned American base across from the Canadian base and, believing he was attempting to sneak into the Canadian base to steal supplies, turned him over to another soldier, who led the teenager to a bunker being used to house munitions. Arone protested, claiming he had simply been trying to find a lost child.

At 21:00, Sgt. Mark Boland replaced Master Corporal Clayton Matchee as guard of the prisoner, and ordered that his foot bindings be removed, and replaced with fetters as the ropes were too tight. Warrant Officer Murphy took the opportunity to kick Arone "savagely", which was later claimed to be implicit permission to abuse the prisoner. At this time, Matchee began his abuse of Arone by removing the captive's clothing and using it to crudely waterboard the youth until Boland objected, and Matchee left the bunker.

At 22:00, Trooper Kyle Brown took over guard duty, and brought Matchee back with him. Brown punched Arone in the jaw, and was told by Boland, rather prophetically, "I don't care what you do, just don't kill the guy", to which Brown replied that he wanted to "kill this fucker". Boland then joined Matchee and Matt McKay for beers in the mess hall, where Matchee spoke about what he wanted to do to Arone, and suggested he might put out cigarette butts on his feet. McKay suggested that Matchee might use a ration pack or phone book to beat the youth, as it would not leave any traces.

Matchee and Brown, both members of 2 Commando, then proceeded to beat Arone. Matchee used a ration pack to beat the youth, as well as a broomstick, and sodomised the teenager with it. Brown participated in the abuse, but was primarily an observer and took sixteen "trophy photos" of the beating, including one of Matchee forcing Arone's mouth open with a baton, and one of himself holding Pte. David Brocklebank's loaded pistol to Arone's head. At approximately 23:20, Master Cpl. Giasson entered the bunker, Matchee showed him Arone, who was now semi-conscious and bleeding, and boasted that "in Canada we cannot do that, and here they let us do it".

Estimates have ranged from 15-80 other soldiers could hear or observe the beating, but did not intervene. Corporal MacDonald, acting as duty signaller that night, was asked by Sgt. Major Mills about "a long dragged out howl" heard from the vicinity of the bunker, but MacDonald refused to stop playing Game Boy to investigate. Later, Matchee came by to borrow a cigarette from MacDonald and mentioned that "now the Black man would fear the Indian as he did the white man", and MacDonald went outside to check on Arone's status. He saw Matchee hitting him in the face with the baton, and reported that the prisoner was "getting a good shit-kicking" to Sgt. Perry Gresty, before retiring to bed for the night.

Arone fell unconscious after several hours of beatings, after shouting "Canada! Canada! Canada!" as his last words. When Brown mentioned the event to Sergeant J.K. Hillier, the non-commissioned officer noted there "would be trouble" if the prisoner died, and went to check on the youth whom he found had no pulse, and base medics confirmed that the boy was dead. It was later discovered that Arone had burn marks on his penis."

That is what happens when people believe that the end justifies the means.

[bush_cheney2004]

Gee.....waterboarding would be a walk in the park after that.

[Guest]

The most shameful part of that episode was the Canadian government's response.

Edited August 5, 2014 by bcsapper

[bush_cheney2004]

Maybe that's why the episode is called "Canada's Great Shame". American torture...not so much....we are shameless !!

[Army Guy]

I want to clarify a few things The CAR was not a rogue unit, it may have had some twisted members but as a whole it was a good unit which had completed alot of good things in Somalia most of which goes unheard because of a few bad apples.... and while the statements above do paint a grim picture of what torture looks like....you have have left out the context of what this men went through to get to that state...it does matter when looking at the why.....Not that i'm excusing their actions, those that were punished got what they had coming. But to disband the entire Regt years later was a cheap policitcal move to apease the public....

Torture is bad in all it's forms. and the ticking bomb thing rarely happens...

[Sheogorath_The_Mad]

I'll never understand how people can think the governments too irresponsible to spend a fiver appropriately yet responsible enough to torture and maim.

[AngusThermopyle]

I want to clarify a few things The CAR was not a rogue unit, it may have had some twisted members but as a whole it was a good unit which had completed alot of good things in Somalia most of which goes unheard because of a few bad apples.... and while the statements above do paint a grim picture of what torture looks like....you have have left out the context of what this men went through to get to that state...it does matter when looking at the why.....Not that i'm excusing their actions, those that were punished got what they had coming. But to disband the entire Regt years later was a cheap policitcal move to apease the public....

I have to agree that they were a good unit but I also have to qualify that in this case if I am to be honest. I went over there with them and I've gotta tell you it was nuts. Its almost like they went nuts as soon as they set foot on the ground. The first thing they did was round up all the sea cans they could find and build a big fortress out of them. They then posted armed guards at the entrance and did not just challenge anyone approaching but basically interrogated them. We're talking about allies here, Americans, Kiwi's, etc. This was deemed as unnecessary by every other force present who had to deal with them, as they were in a very secure area, As a result in short order no one wanted anything to do with them No other force or unit present found it necessary to build such a fortress or act this way. I myself was treated this way every time I left and tried to re-enter the fortress. This was despite the fact that I had been TD'd to them for months prior to arrival in Somalia. My big break came when I found out that the RCD boys needed someone and I managed to get my ass attached to them instead, the Airborne guys weren't sad to see me go as I "wasn't one of them". As I said, that was my big break, it got me the hell out of that madhouse. On the other hand the RCD guys were the best, extremely professional and a great bunch of guys more than willing to welcome any help they could get. The CAR may have been a fine unit but those guys they sent over there were a huge bunch of dicks and cowboys. On the other hand I agree that disbanding the Regiment was no more than a cheap political ploy and should not have happened. I

It was shortly after I joined the RCD guys that most of the Airborne guys deployed to Bellatwain and Belladogle (sp?) two small villages outside of Mogadishu. That is when they totally lost it. Of course a lot of that can be attributed to the leadership of Labe. He was a true wanna be cowboy POS. It was under his encouragement that a lot of this happened. I was extremely dismayed that after the mission they promoted him. The bright side though is when all this stuff came to light they demoted him. Its only my opinion but I believe he should have been charged and stood trial for his actions however that never happened. It was a cluster f*ck from the word go, you had to be there to believe the stuff that went down. The truly tragic part is that all the Canadians there were painted with the same brush and that is just 100% unfair. The Navy guys were outstanding in the performance of their duties as were the RCD guys, but they will never get the recognition they deserve for the job they did because of the shit show the Airborne put on.

Anyway, I only posted to refute the claim that Arone was roasted. He was not. Burning someone with cigarettes is not roasting them. It was bad enough without adding false information and drama to the account. I should also add that I was both horrified and disgusted when I found out what had transpired, actually we all were. This conduct was as far from professional as a Military man can get. It was a disgrace and shame visited upon all of us collectively by a relatively small amount of goons and served only to eclipse all the good we had achieved. Just look at the reaction of the civies on this forum for an accurate representation of the perception Canadians hold of Somalia and our role there. Not one of them knows a single thing about the good work that was done. All they know about is the scandal.

[eyeball]

It seems to me that calling EIT torture demeans those who suffered from real torture. Certainly it's unpleasant and scary and traumatizing, but I'd put it on a lower level of outrage than say shoving a heated poker up someone's anus or scooping their eyeballs out with sharpened spoons.

The problem I have with using your examples of torture to justify using torture ourselves is that the monsters that would do what you're describing are all too often supported if not created by us and or our policies abroad.

Wheeling and dealing with backward countries is over the long term making us more like them than the other way around.

[Argus]

Got your facts a tad skewed again. They didn't exactly set him free, they overturned the conviction based on a questionable confession and they didn't say they couldn't use the "Mr. Big" technique but had to modify it. Once again as with torture, if you beat crap out of someone, what you get is crap, and the beating doesn't have to be done with sticks and stones necessarily.

They said the police were unfair in tricking him and could not use either his confession or any evidence which derived from it. He is now a free man. Perhaps he'll start another family and have more kids... Justice simply has no importance to jud.ges

[bush_cheney2004]

....Wheeling and dealing with backward countries is over the long term making us more like them than the other way around.

What's makes you think "us" was ever any better than "them" ?

[Argus]

Anyone who thinks torture is an effective technique, whether there is a "ticking time bomb" or not, has watched too much 24, or some such show.

TV dramas are not an effective research tool.

Hasn't torture been used for thousands of years to extract information from prisoners succesfully? Perhaps EIT simply isn't brutal enough.

[Argus]

I want to clarify a few things The CAR was not a rogue unit, it may have had some twisted members but as a whole it was a good unit which had completed alot of good things in Somalia most of which goes unheard because of a few bad apples.... and while the statements above do paint a grim picture of what torture looks like....you have have left out the context of what this men went through to get to that state...it does matter when looking at the why.....Not that i'm excusing their actions, those that were punished got what they had coming. But to disband the entire Regt years later was a cheap policitcal move to apease the public....

Torture is bad in all it's forms. and the ticking bomb thing rarely happens...

It also left out that the CAR went to the local community's elders and asked them what they could do about all the thieves plaguing them. The elders were astonished. "Just kill them," they told the Canadians, as if speaking to simpletons.

The beating of the individual was not done by any organization, nor by orders from above. It was instigated by a couple of enlisted men on their own angry at their stuff being stolen. Using it an example of enhanced interrogation is ludicrous.

[Shady]

Nope, we should stop trading with them and arrest their leaders if we get the chance and send them to the Hague.

So you want to stop trading with almost the entire world, and arrest their leaders? I'm sure that'll work out swell.

[eyeball]

What's makes you think "us" was ever any better than "them" ?

[guyser]

... Justice simply has no importance to jud.ges

Actually in the interest of justice is the reason he was let go.