Why Islam is dangerous

Goddess · September 8, 2016

I don't expect "complete" unity, I don't believe I ever said that. (?)

However, in respect to the violent interpretations of the Koran, yes.....I would expect complete unity. That is a big thing to me, and to the world right now. I would also expect that in a matter this HUGE (whether to kill all non-Muslims or not), a religion that claims to be perfect would not be having problems like they are right now.

Obviously there is no unity in the interpretations (even in minor matters), so what are the consequences of being a rogue Muslim? How do they deal with that?

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

Well, I don't know why anyone would expect complete unity in a religion with billions of adherents. Its hard to get unity with a group of more than one person. Still, within the Islam faith, more than 99% do not subscribe to the violence and killing of non-believers that ISIS practices. Thats pretty unified on that front but they do differ dramatically on other issues.

What is your source for that number?

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

I don't expect "complete" unity, I don't believe I ever said that. (?)

However, in respect to the violent interpretations of the Koran, yes.....I would expect complete unity. That is a big thing to me, and to the world right now. I would also expect that in a matter this HUGE (whether to kill all non-Muslims or not), a religion that claims to be perfect would not be having problems like they are right now.

Obviously there is no unity in the interpretations (even in minor matters), so what are the consequences of being a rogue Muslim? How do they deal with that?

The fellow holding the weapon has the True version of Islam.

drummindiver · September 8, 2016

Nope, you're still wide of the mark as usual. No one has said every problem.

You still don't have a clue what I'm talking about do you?

Please enlighten me Obi Wan.

TimG · September 8, 2016

As long as ISIS doesn't know anything about Abrogation, we'll be golden.

Can you explain what you mean by that comment?

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

Can you explain what you mean by that comment?

Many of the Quranic quotes are Abrogated by the so-called Verse of the Sword and other later verses. So as long as they can convince al-Baghdadi that HE has the Quran all wrong...perhaps this....heh...letter will work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medinan_surah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

I doubt it.

Folks around this forum act like as long as they can convince ME...Islam will stop being violent. That's not how it works. I assure you I'm an atheist.

Peter F · September 8, 2016

DoP:

Folks around this forum act like as long as they can convince ME...Islam will stop being violent. That's not how it works. I assure you I'm an atheist.

and you asked in post #135

Nor has anybody been able to explain what part of Islam ISIS has wrong. What do they have wrong about their religion?

so I provided a link to some muslim scholarly types who explain what ISIS has wrong about their religion.

I am not trying to convert you to anything. You asked a reasonable question; I provided a link to a reasonable answer. What more do you want?

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

And I was able to brush-off such sophomoric attempts at schooling me in the Quran much like I assume al-Baghdadi will do.

But, if you feel that Dog is indeed the problem with Islam...by all means....continue.

dialamah · September 8, 2016

What is your source for that number?

I used Math. Estimated active ISIS fighters 30,000 to 200,000 according to source below. I added another 300,000 active or sympathetic for total of 500,000 to ensure I wasn't underestimating. Divide 500,000 by 1.5 BILLION Muslims worldwide = .0033%. Thus more than 99% of Muslims do not agree with ISIS violence. You would have to have 15 million active ISIS fighters/sympathizers to even reach 1%.

Source for numbers. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_activity_of_ISIL

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

I used Math. Estimated active ISIS fighters 30,000 to 200,000 according to source below. I added another 300,000 active or sympathetic for total of 500,000 to ensure I wasn't underestimating. Divide 500,000 by 1.5 BILLION Muslims worldwide = .0033%. Thus more than 99% of Muslims do not agree with ISIS violence. You would have to have 15 million active ISIS fighters/sympathizers to even reach 1%.

Source for numbers. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_activity_of_ISIL

So...no source.

Goddess · September 8, 2016

I don't believe the 99% thing either......

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428146/

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

I don't believe the 99% thing either......

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428146/

I'm pretty much aligned with Sam Harris re: the numbers....scary numbers any way you cut it. If any other group had Islam's reputation for violence, it would be criminalized. For example...the Mafia.

Peter F · September 8, 2016

And I was able to brush-off such sophomoric attempts at schooling me in the Quran much like I assume al-Baghdadi will do.

But, if you feel that Dog is indeed the problem with Islam...by all means....continue.

Absolutely, Like al-Baghdadi you will stick to your guns and you will both claim he reflects the truth of Islam. You and Al-Baghdadi both brush off the authors of the Letter to Al-baghdadi as meaningless drivel from sophomoric minds.

And no, Dog is not the problem with Islam since you are a non-believer and thus have no authority in Islam or even pretence to authority.

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

Well this is the fact we'll all have to deal with: al-Baghdadi will look at that letter and think: Those verses are Abrogated.

Banning Dog or the usual methods of shutting-up Islam's critics won't change the above.

Edited September 8, 2016 by DogOnPorch

dialamah · September 8, 2016

Many of the Quranic quotes are Abrogated by the so-called Verse of the Sword and other later verses. So as long as they can convince al-Baghdadi that HE has the Quran all wrong...perhaps this....heh...letter will work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medinan_surah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

I doubt it.

Folks around this forum act like as long as they can convince ME...Islam will stop being violent. That's not how it works. I assure you I'm an atheist.

As are many people who recruit for and fight with ISIS. Called mercenaries, they're just looking for excitement and and spoils that come their way.

They recruit those who are believers by telling them that certain verses are Allah's command to kill and that this is the True Islam. They tell them that anyone who says differently is not a True Muslim and doesn't follow the teachings of the prophet. Much like you do here, DoP.

cybercoma · September 8, 2016

And I was able to brush-off such sophomoric attempts at schooling me in the Quran

That's your problem. You think you know it all already and won't listen to people far more educated than you on the subject.

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

As are many people who recruit for and fight with ISIS. Called mercenaries, they're just looking for excitement and and spoils that come their way.

They recruit those who are believers by telling them that certain verses are Allah's command to kill and that this is the True Islam. They tell them that anyone who says differently is not a True Muslim and doesn't follow the teachings of the prophet. Much like you do here, DoP.

What is the True Islam?

That's your problem. You think you know it all already and won't listen to people far more educated than you on the subject.

Experts...

One needs to be an expert to be a Muslim.

Peter F · September 8, 2016

Of course al-Baghdadi will come up with something to justify why he is not the loser some folks say he is. Thats not unusual. Even Hitler had endless sessions of table-talk about why he was right. The thought that 'Hey, maybe I fucked-up' won't enter al-Baghdadi's head. No doubt he will even latch onto

Abrogation to justify his beliefs. Will he be correct to do so? What do you think?

You seem to believe that ISIS is the one and only true Islamic religion. You claimed that you had no knowledge or evidence that al-Baghdadi and the Caliphate were not the one true version of Islam. I provided an equally islamic view that al-Baghdadi is not the one and only true vision of Islam.

And for that you believe you are about to be banned? or that you are being 'shut-up'?

Relax, its not all about you.

Altai · September 8, 2016

Well, you are playing with words. A non-muslim that is not aware of what Islam is, is not a Kafir because he does not know it. However, if a non-muslim has read a bit of Quran or have heard about it and does not agree with it, therefore it is a Kafir. Just the fact that the Quran states that a behavior toward someone must be different depending if you are addressing to a Kafir or not, it says alot about the inequality of men under the muslim religion. Whether the translation is accurate or not.

The Jews and the Muslims are similar on that point of view. They grant the believers to have different rules in regards to people whether they are one of them or not. Unlike the Christians where the Bible says they are all the sons of gods and the believers must have the same attitude toward people even if they are not Christians. However, for Christians, God keeps himself the right to have different treatments to people based on whether they obeyed him or not. Which at the end of the day, almost means the same.

Those three systems are very old and are not adapted to our modern values. It is very clear that they were written by people in a period of time where the social advances were not as great as today. However the religions pretend that they Bible/Torah/Quran/etc were written based of the words of their god/allah/etc and therefore, they believe that it can't be disputed. That's their weakness point.

Do you know why the men back then need to claim this is coming from their "god"? Because they knew that it was the only way to make people respect the book. The individuals would have never been accept to follow the saying of one of their own, of of their equal. It had to be coming from a higher entity. From someone superior. God/Allah/etc is an excellent concept to fulfill that requirement.

It's amazing to see how people still like to comply in their certainties. It has something very comforting. Wow, a great super power and very righteous divine entity is taking care of me. Now I feel good. Be sure I'll do whatever he/she/it says in return. It's the very least. Funny how this is very similar to the mafia principle that if you contribute to the clan, you will be protected. That's very low level human mindset. That Divine entity can create the whole universe and all those physic laws but, somehow, it feels the need to be worshiped by inferior creatures it has recently created after several billions of years of existence.

The incapacity for believers to question that is the proof that if there was a divine superior creator, it would certainly not be one of those. Religions were very useful for human looking for moral codes for several thousand years. Since the people are now their own sovereign, have a decent (although not perfect) legal system and laws to enforce those values, the religions are not as much necessary as they once were and it also explains why they are trailing at social advancements.

I appreciate that you bring us corrections regarding the translation of the Quran which is definitely not evil as some Islamophobics are trying to say. But I suggest you be careful to not lose your freewill and capacity to use a critical sense. A religion is not only a set of rules, it is also tied to culture. It's up to you to make it change for the best or bow down on your knew and accept mindset of people at a period of time where there was no aqueduct and they thought earth was flat.

Actually, before Islam, the word "kafir" was never used with its meaning in Quran. Therefore we need to look at usage of it in Quran to understand that what does it really mean. Its about hiding something but how its used in Quran ? You can find the verses which includes the word "kafir", there are search sites for it. You will realize that its not used to describe "non-Muslims" but used to describe the persons agressively try to hide and distort Islamic concepts or verses.

Just the opposite Quran orders justice in many verses, even I think that its only about justice, does not matter whether or not you are a Muslim. It says even if its your father, you will never behave unjust to someone, so you wont even defend your father if your father is the wrong side. Everyone has equal rights in Islam as long as you are not an agressive and unjust person.

Morality is something eternal and untimely, for example theft was a bad action 10.000 years ago and today its still a bad action. So its a false premise to say religion is not belong to today. Religion does not order you to use steam trains instead of electric trains. Just the opposite it orders you to be open for innovations.

Its think that it was written by the people of the time and have nothing with something holy. Its just the opposite for us.

Yes its perfect to think that a great power protects you, everyone likes the idea is not it ? Why its something cute for humanbeing ? Because of we have innate faith in God. The main thing is to realize the existence of God by logic. I dont know the other religions but in Islam you are ordered to think about the existence of God in many verses, I love this verse soo much "These are the Muslims, they think about the existence of God while walking or while sitting or while lying on their side." Islam does not order you to believe in a holy power somewhere behind the clouds without any proof or logical explanation, it want you to think about it. I dont think many persons who claims being Muslims claim being Muslim because of they realize the existence of God by logic but they claim being Muslim because of their families was performing such an action. If it was such easy to create a religion just because of you like to be protected, Superman and Batman would create their own religions with millions of followers.

Thanks for your advice, I am a Muslim because of I have critical thinking capacity.

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

Of course al-Baghdadi will come up with something to justify why he is not the loser some folks say he is. Thats not unusual. Even Hitler had endless sessions of table-talk about why he was right. The thought that 'Hey, maybe I fucked-up' won't enter al-Baghdadi's head. No doubt he will even latch onto

Abrogation to justify his beliefs. Will he be correct to do so? What do you think?

You seem to believe that ISIS is the one and only true Islamic religion. You claimed that you had no knowledge or evidence that al-Baghdadi and the Caliphate were not the one true version of Islam. I provided an equally islamic view that al-Baghdadi is not the one and only true vision of Islam.

And for that you believe you are about to be banned? or that you are being 'shut-up'?

I don't believe in any Bronze Age myths, thanks.

You can call the fellow a loser...from a distance. I compare him to the Mahdi whom I've mentioned before in these threads and was ignored. You know....Gordon and Kitchener...Flashman was probably there.

Relax, its not all about you.

Famous last words before zee bomb explodes.

Edited September 8, 2016 by DogOnPorch

Goddess · September 8, 2016

I dont think many persons who claims being Muslims claim being Muslim because of they realize the existence of God by logic but they claim being Muslim because of their families was performing such an action.

BINGO!

Now think about that for a little while.....

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

A bit of background to the Mahdist War which...in my opinion...is a pretty good mirror of ISIS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdist_War

Islam does this regular-like being my point....somebody is always going to be 'the guy'. Be it a Twelver Shia or a Mahdist Sunni.

dialamah · September 8, 2016

What is the True Islam?

There is no True Islam. You and ISIS have your preferred version of "True"; my brother-in-law has his, the female Imams in Denmark have their version. All equally true to tbeir adherents.

Tell us, DoP, why do you choose the most abhorrent "truth" to follow? Why do you reject the equally valid "truth" that promotes non-violence?

Peter F · September 8, 2016

I don't believe in any Bronze Age myths, thanks.

Yet, despite your lack of belief in Bronze-age myths, you said:

Nor has anybody been able to explain what part of Islam ISIS has wrong. What do they have wrong about their religion?

You contended, in ignorance, that ISIS had it right in regards to Islam. Anything countering that is 'sophomoric' and a 'Bronze-age myth'

Now you have had the opportunity to become enlightened in that, perhaps, the Letter to al-Baghdadi indicates - maybe - that ISIS has it wrong.

DogOnPorch · September 8, 2016

There is no True Islam. You and ISIS have your preferred version of "True"; my brother-in-law has his, the female Imams in Denmark have their version. All equally true to tbeir adherents.

Tell us, DoP, why do you choose the most abhorrent "truth" to follow? Why do you reject the equally valid "truth" that promotes non-violence?

I don't believe in any of the myths you and other religious folk subscribe to.

My source is the Quran and I've explained plenty why the early verses were Abrogated in favor of later verses. Do you need to hear it again?

Yet, despite your lack of belief in Bronze-age myths, you said:

You contended, in ignorance, that ISIS had it right in regards to Islam. Anything countering that is 'sophomoric' and a 'Bronze-age myth'

Now you have had the opportunity to become enlightened in that, perhaps, the Letter to al-Baghdadi indicates - maybe - that ISIS has it wrong.

Yes indeed. Abrogation is a fact of Islam we'll all have to deal with because the fellows with the guns and the bombs are the ones 'misinterpreting Islam' (lol).

Edited September 8, 2016 by DogOnPorch